Ask The Tropers

Sonichu was locked for complaining and documenting the creator's personal life, but it honestly deserves the bashing it gets.

Complaining About Shows You Don't Like is still a rule on this wiki.

And regardless isn't grounds for misgendering if she is transgender.

For the Sonichu page in particular, the Locked Pages: Lock, UnLock and Edit requests thread may be the place to go. Or is this too big an edit to ask?

^ People don't refuse to acknowledge Chris Chan's preferred gender because of Sonichu, but because she's done a lot of crappy things and ironically used to be a huge homophobe. People thought she just started crossdressing to get a girlfriend (not that that makes sense, but Chris doesn't make sense), but now she's gone from identifying as a "tomgirl" to a "lesbian transwoman". However there's been evidence for a long time (like with Chris' imaginary twin sister Crystal), and it raises issues of TV Tropes policing people's gender.

It might be easier to rewrite it in Sandbox.Sonichu and then ask in the ^ thread for the rewrite to be put in.

^^ I don't know anything about the controversy surrounding Christine nor do I care to find out, but since she openly identifies as a woman, it's best not to dispute it. Changing someone's pronouns after they've transitioned isn't policing their gender.

^^^ I've no idea what that even means. CWC may be a pain in the ass, but if they now identify as a women, I don't see a reason not to refer to them as such.

I meant that continuing to use male pronouns could be considered policing CWC's gender.

Whatever the case and however we go about this, the sandbox should be kept on the downlow, as I imagine there are still a lot of people who'd see an unlocked Sonichu page and try their hardest to mess with it.

I was thinking of bringing the Chris-chan gender issue up myself, but I'm not sure we got off on the right foot here.

It's very rare that we'd have to use a gendered name when discussing the real-life person, because "Chris-chan" can be used gender-neutrally, and "Chris" is short for all three names the person has used.

For the record, I prefer they/them if we absolutely have to use pronouns for Chris, because of the admittedly weird situation surrounding them.

Frankly, I'd rather delete the entire article given how much controversy it's caused, but if that's not on the table, then please sandbox the desired corrections and post in the Locked Pages topic so we can transplant them.

At this point, deletion of all the Sonichu/Asperchu stuff may be our only option, and not just because of the pronoun troubles.

The only purpose of troping Sonichu/Asperchu is because of the behind-the-scenes stuff.

Obviously they contain valid tropes, as seen by the current pages, and haven't caused many problems since being locked AFAIK. I strongly oppose deleting them.

I'm all in favor of simply cutlisting the page. If it's just going to attract drama, then we don't need it on the wiki.

I'd back the cutlisting option too, for what it is worth.

If we were to delete Sonichu, should we then delete other works that receive mostly negative attention like My Immortal?

I don't think we should delete Sonichu. Sonichu does not attract that much drama to this wiki since CWC nowadays is not as dramatic as (s)he used to be, it brought us 40K+ inbounds, it's a legitimate fictional work with valid tropes, it's not porn (not counting some scenes of issue 8, and Chris him/herself released a censored version), there are merits unique to Sonichu other than the behind-the-scenes stuff (it's one of the few hand-drawn webcomics with markers for example), and there have been no real problems since it was locked. Overall, I'd say it has no traits that a work we delete has - on the contrary, I think the page should be expanded since some new comics have come out lately, which a sandbox could help with. So we should keep it as long as we trope the actual comic and not CWC.

Piterpicher put it perfectly. "Attracting drama" isn't normally a reason to delete a work, and the drama has mostly died down.

"Hasn't caused problems since it was locked" is hardly an argument in favor of an article. "Nobody's stolen my precious art after I sealed it in a vault behind ten security guards."

That said, we only delete work articles in extreme cases. I threw out cutting it as an option, not a recommendation. My current position is that someone should take on sandboxing the needed corrections, after which we will transplant them to the article.

One good idea during this process would be to remove as many references to the author as possible, a recommended practice in general wiki writing. Tropes should be about the work, not its author.

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of cutting, because then it begs the question of what other works we could and maybe would cut with the same principal.

We should clean the page up, keep it locked, and then toss the sandbox as soon as we're done.

^ Completely agree with War Jay 77.

^ - Yes.

^^^

^(x8) My Immortal is a Troll Fic, while Sonichu is a genuine attempt at a story. Sonichu also has a much worst reputation than My Immortal.

My Immortal may be a Troll Fic, there are no strong arguments for either case. Still, Sonichu is genuine, and War Jay 77's arguments work too.

^ My Immortal is a confirmed troll, as long as the person claiming to be Tara is actually Tara.

Concurred with Warjay and Piterpicher regarding this statement

I agree with Piterpicher and WarJay77.

Speaking asatranswoman, if she presents and identifies as such, she should have her pronouns respected (that means using she/her, not "they"; we don't get to make that call), and it's pretty important that it's done sharpish.

In a rare case for me because I hate cutting I'd also agree with totally nuking it and all related pages because it's just asking to import off-site drama and it's creator is known for raising a stink when her work is discussed unfavorably.

Failing that thought I'd agree with the second option of correcting the page to reflect the creator now openly being a transwoman (ie: changing pronouns and names) and immediately re-locking it.

Locking it has worked, and the Chris trolldom has quieted down now, so I see no reason to delete it. I think the page should still mention her former name, since she and her Author Avatar were known by that name through most of the comic's history.

How did a query about the gender to use turn into a cutting discussion? I think all we need here is for someone to sandbox the gender changes and ask for a swap.

...because a mod brought up the subject?

The sandbox has sat for a while now. Can it be swapped in?

^ Ask in the locked pages thread (and maybe link this ATT thread for context)

Probably gonna have to sandbox the subpages, too. I glanced at the Characters/ page and it's about as bad as you'd expect from a page that was locked for attracting drama during our wiki's chaotic olden times.

I’ve made the request (and made a sandbox for the YMMV page here); I agree that the characters page needs to be reworked.

The characters page isn't locked.

Oh, I saw the lock and assumed it wasn't the bug.

I’ve finished the pronoun swap on the work page. It can be swapped in now.

I've done so per the request on the locked page thread.

Should I cut the sandbox, since it's been swapped in?

Yes, since it's served its purpose.

Cutted.