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7th Feb, 2019 08:45:26 PM

Sonichu was locked for complaining and documenting the creator's personal life, but it honestly deserves the bashing it gets.

7th Feb, 2019 09:09:31 PM

Complaining About Shows You Don't Like is still a rule on this wiki.

Edited by LazyHazy
7th Feb, 2019 09:31:29 PM

And regardless isn't grounds for misgendering if she is transgender.

For the Sonichu page in particular, the Locked Pages: Lock, UnLock and Edit requests thread may be the place to go. Or is this too big an edit to ask?

7th Feb, 2019 10:18:51 PM

^ People don't refuse to acknowledge Chris Chan's preferred gender because of Sonichu, but because she's done a lot of crappy things and ironically used to be a huge homophobe. People thought she just started crossdressing to get a girlfriend (not that that makes sense, but Chris doesn't make sense), but now she's gone from identifying as a "tomgirl" to a "lesbian transwoman". However there's been evidence for a long time (like with Chris' imaginary twin sister Crystal), and it raises issues of TV Tropes policing people's gender.

7th Feb, 2019 10:19:03 PM

It might be easier to rewrite it in Sandbox.Sonichu and then ask in the ^ thread for the rewrite to be put in.

7th Feb, 2019 11:30:10 PM

^^ I don't know anything about the controversy surrounding Christine nor do I care to find out, but since she openly identifies as a woman, it's best not to dispute it. Changing someone's pronouns after they've transitioned isn't policing their gender.

Edited by LazyHazy
7th Feb, 2019 11:38:50 PM

^^^ I've no idea what that even means. CWC may be a pain in the ass, but if they now identify as a women, I don't see a reason not to refer to them as such.

8th Feb, 2019 12:43:33 AM

I meant that continuing to use male pronouns could be considered policing CWC's gender.

8th Feb, 2019 12:54:43 AM

Whatever the case and however we go about this, the sandbox should be kept on the downlow, as I imagine there are still a lot of people who'd see an unlocked Sonichu page and try their hardest to mess with it.

8th Feb, 2019 01:57:59 AM

I was thinking of bringing the Chris-chan gender issue up myself, but I'm not sure we got off on the right foot here.

It's very rare that we'd have to use a gendered name when discussing the real-life person, because "Chris-chan" can be used gender-neutrally, and "Chris" is short for all three names the person has used.

For the record, I prefer they/them if we absolutely have to use pronouns for Chris, because of the admittedly weird situation surrounding them.

Fighteer MOD
8th Feb, 2019 03:43:08 AM

Frankly, I'd rather delete the entire article given how much controversy it's caused, but if that's not on the table, then please sandbox the desired corrections and post in the Locked Pages topic so we can transplant them.

8th Feb, 2019 05:33:21 AM

At this point, deletion of all the Sonichu/Asperchu stuff may be our only option, and not just because of the pronoun troubles.

The only purpose of troping Sonichu/Asperchu is because of the behind-the-scenes stuff.

8th Feb, 2019 06:25:17 AM

Obviously they contain valid tropes, as seen by the current pages, and haven't caused many problems since being locked AFAIK. I strongly oppose deleting them.

8th Feb, 2019 06:32:20 AM

I'm all in favor of simply cutlisting the page. If it's just going to attract drama, then we don't need it on the wiki.

8th Feb, 2019 06:53:26 AM

I'd back the cutlisting option too, for what it is worth.

8th Feb, 2019 06:57:12 AM

If we were to delete Sonichu, should we then delete other works that receive mostly negative attention like My Immortal?

8th Feb, 2019 07:22:35 AM

I don't think we should delete Sonichu. Sonichu does not attract that much drama to this wiki since CWC nowadays is not as dramatic as (s)he used to be, it brought us 40K+ inbounds, it's a legitimate fictional work with valid tropes, it's not porn (not counting some scenes of issue 8, and Chris him/herself released a censored version), there are merits unique to Sonichu other than the behind-the-scenes stuff (it's one of the few hand-drawn webcomics with markers for example), and there have been no real problems since it was locked. Overall, I'd say it has no traits that a work we delete has - on the contrary, I think the page should be expanded since some new comics have come out lately, which a sandbox could help with. So we should keep it as long as we trope the actual comic and not CWC.

Edited by Piterpicher
8th Feb, 2019 07:40:40 AM

Piterpicher put it perfectly. "Attracting drama" isn't normally a reason to delete a work, and the drama has mostly died down.

Fighteer MOD
8th Feb, 2019 07:50:37 AM

"Hasn't caused problems since it was locked" is hardly an argument in favor of an article. "Nobody's stolen my precious art after I sealed it in a vault behind ten security guards."

That said, we only delete work articles in extreme cases. I threw out cutting it as an option, not a recommendation. My current position is that someone should take on sandboxing the needed corrections, after which we will transplant them to the article.

One good idea during this process would be to remove as many references to the author as possible, a recommended practice in general wiki writing. Tropes should be about the work, not its author.

Edited by Fighteer
8th Feb, 2019 10:36:54 AM

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of cutting, because then it begs the question of what other works we could and maybe would cut with the same principal.

We should clean the page up, keep it locked, and then toss the sandbox as soon as we're done.

8th Feb, 2019 10:43:15 AM

^ Completely agree with War Jay 77.

8th Feb, 2019 11:19:19 AM

^(x8) My Immortal is a Troll Fic, while Sonichu is a genuine attempt at a story. Sonichu also has a much worst reputation than My Immortal.

8th Feb, 2019 11:45:00 AM

My Immortal may be a Troll Fic, there are no strong arguments for either case. Still, Sonichu is genuine, and War Jay 77's arguments work too.

Edited by Piterpicher
9th Feb, 2019 12:53:50 AM

^ My Immortal is a confirmed troll, as long as the person claiming to be Tara is actually Tara.

9th Feb, 2019 01:10:38 AM

Concurred with Warjay and Piterpicher regarding this statement

9th Feb, 2019 08:12:22 AM

I agree with Piterpicher and WarJay77.

Edited by Brainulator9
10th Feb, 2019 01:58:29 PM

Speaking asatranswoman, if she presents and identifies as such, she should have her pronouns respected (that means using she/her, not "they"; we don't get to make that call), and it's pretty important that it's done sharpish.

10th Feb, 2019 06:06:56 PM

In a rare case for me because I hate cutting I'd also agree with totally nuking it and all related pages because it's just asking to import off-site drama and it's creator is known for raising a stink when her work is discussed unfavorably.

Failing that thought I'd agree with the second option of correcting the page to reflect the creator now openly being a transwoman (ie: changing pronouns and names) and immediately re-locking it.

10th Feb, 2019 07:14:01 PM

Locking it has worked, and the Chris trolldom has quieted down now, so I see no reason to delete it. I think the page should still mention her former name, since she and her Author Avatar were known by that name through most of the comic's history.

10th Feb, 2019 10:16:48 PM

How did a query about the gender to use turn into a cutting discussion? I think all we need here is for someone to sandbox the gender changes and ask for a swap.

10th Feb, 2019 10:48:57 PM

...because a mod brought up the subject?


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