Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I think what Lightysnake is asking for is proof that demons aren't capable of making moral choices. A limited choice is still a choice.

Is there no variance in what demons seek and how they act? We have characters from very evil races listed as long as they aren't straight up incapable of good qualities thanks to their nature.

There is, but it's extremely limited, usually Played for Laughs, and never depicted as a reason to spare them. Again, they're treated as a form of narrative shorthand for 'innately bad monster'. Actual moral struggles are universally from someone Fighting from the Inside after being unwillingly converted into a demon.

Edited by Iaculus on Oct 19th 2020 at 5:13:05 PM

I feel you're attempting to take narrative tropes, for demon being shorthand for monster in a sense and apply that to them being incapable of a moral choice. Demons in Fighting Fantasy are explicitly made of evil, formed by literal evil energies. Horrors in Garo are likewise, formed out of darkness and evil made manifest.

Dragon Quest using demons as evil beings doesn't showcase them as being incapable of the choice, especially with ones who are more evil than others. We've given passes before such as Warhammer when an argument was made in the proposal of Gorthor the Beastlord, even thought Beastmen are innately warped by Chaos as they're still capable of standards and he violates the few they explicitly have

Yeah, it's mainly that demon standards in Dragon Quest aren't generally particularly strong or taken particularly seriously. There isn't the inter-demon moral conflict you might see in more introspective works except in the scenario I mentioned (where someone is still partially non-demonic).

There is moral conflict in Dragon Quest, but it's centred on human characters. Demons are more of an outside corruptive force.

Not really seeing the cut case, them tending to be a short hand for bad guy and having little sympathy played to them by the work doesn't mean they lack agency. Knowing "classical demons" tend to be evil doesn't mean in universe they have no choice in the matter.

Naraku, but wasn't he on here for some time already? Iirc he was deemed a keep WAY back.

Edited by xie323 on Oct 19th 2020 at 10:24:36 AM

Left my reasoning for the EP in my post if you're curious.

He hadn't been properly discussed and needed to be fully evaluated because while he is one of anime/manga's more prominent villains, there were still potential issues that needed discussing.

Doing my own research on Dragon Quest demons? I'm not seeing the argument to cut working out. The wiki page for demons outright says some demons want peace with humans, and the Big Bad of IV, Psaro, appears to be a demon who has plenty of genuine redeeming features—notably a love for the woman Rose, who he cares for to such a point that her death literally drives him insane, and when she is resurrected, he calms down and actually makes peace with humans for doing so, proving demons are not only capable of redeeming features, but outright Heel–Face Turn.

Any thoughts on how this doesn't prove demons are not inherently Made of Evil, Iac?

Edited by Ravok on Oct 19th 2020 at 10:29:53 AM

Thank you for the research and care to detail as usual Ravok! Formally giving my vote to keep Rhapthorne.

Are they any keepers in Disney's Aladdin; The Animated Series? Was that ever discussed before?

No keepers. Unless you mean the remake.

No not the remake, just the animated series. I was kinda wondering if Mirage count as one.

I'll be absent from both this thread and Magnificent Bastard for a while. I'll need to take care of serious issues. My dad just threatened to kill my little brother...

Jesus, I hope things get better on your end.

I'm sorry to hear that.

So, Vance Pauley from Kindred in Death. Interesting in that he's not the main bad guy.

Who is he and what has he done?

We open with the brutal rape and murder of 16-year-old Deena McMasters, daughter of newly-promoted Captain Jonah McMasters. Raped, beaten, sodomized, finally strangled...over a period of eight hours. He drugged her, and also wanted to make sure drugs showed in her system, as Jonah worked in narcotics.

It turns out a supposedly-college age man is the killer, having charmed Deena before killing her and making a tape where he has her say it's Jonah's fault.

The culprit is eventually revealed to be 23-year-old Darrin Pauley. Eve and Roarke go to Alabama to interview his father, Vincent. Vincent tells of how when he was 20, he had a relationship with Darrin's mother, Inga Sorenson (real name eventually revealed to be Illya Schooner). Vincent's fraternal twin brother, Vance, was with Inga earlier, and in fact Vance maybe Darren's father; Darren definitely considers Vance his father. Long story short, they conned Vincent. "...Inga left when Darrin was a couple months old. Took whatever wasn't nailed down in my place, my car, cleaned out the savings I had, even the little account I started for the boy before he was even born. All there was was this video cube from my brother, laughing, telling me thanks for filling in for him. I found out he'd been arrested near to a year before. For some kind of fraud or something. I guess maybe he sent Inga to me, so I'd...fill in. And when he got out, he took them. Just like that". Vance "does what he wants, takes what he wants, hurts who he wants. He always did, even when [he and Vincent] they were kids."

Vance's record: "The juvie's unsealed, so somebody beat me to that along the way. He had trouble starting at nine. Truancy, theft, destruction of private property, cyber bullying, hacking, assault, battery...Twelve on the first assault. It was the ID fraud that had him in during the Inga period. Then he drops off, just like that. He's got a mile-long sheet from childhood to the age of twenty-one, then nothing."

Even talks with Jonah, who reveals more details about the case:

Ilya was rape-murdered by the Stallions, a big-time Chicago gang back then. Darrin was only around 4 at the time.

Another victim: 26-year-old real estate agent Karlene Robins. the daughter of the Child Services agent who moved Darrin into foster care during the investigation of Irene Schultz (Ilya). Darrin posed as the buyer of a loft.

Darrin is arrested going after another victim, and in interview, blames everyone for what happened to his mother, at least as Vance told him.

Vance is soon after arrested.

Disqualifying Factors?

He claims to love his son, but Eve sees through it as him trying to deflect responsibility. He's just a selfish asshole.

Heinousness

The tough one. We all know how high the standard is. Besides the 2 rape-murders and 2 more planned, and maybe more ("Discs—with data on the two people he murdered, the woman he tried to kill just today, on the one he planned to kill next week, and so on."), there's his likely getting Illya killed, plus his manipulating his son (As Eve says: "And if I could, I'd charge you with the murder of Illya Schooner, and with a kid of about four who died and became what you wanted him to be."). A scumbag, but is he bad enough? I'll let you decide. I don't know myself; I keep going back and forth.

Conclusion?

You decide.

Oh, and Darrin himself doesn't count. He loved his mother, and/or was manipulated by his father.

Not feeling Darrin.

Happy Birthday, 'Seraph.

Bro, he's talking about Vance.

I guess that I will give thumbs-up to Pauley. I actually have an EP of my own. Dungeons And Dragons! But it's from an amazing arcade game, Dungeons & Dragons: Chronicles of Mystara duology. I remember how I used to play it in arcades (good times) and now discovered it has been rereleased on Steam. Fantastic game. Before you all argue that there cannot be enough characterization... this game actually has some RPG elements, and I feel there is enough character depth. Granted, I am not very familliar with tabletop D&D, so I am not sure of heinous standard.

Who is Synn and what does she do?

Synn is an evil sorceress who manipulated Lich Deimos (Big Bad of first game) to rule the world. When Deimos got defeated, Synn swore revenge upon the land who didn't want to submit to her. She wishes to unleash an Eldritch Abomination (known only as "The Fiend" in the game) upon the land of Mystara. She has lots of classic monsters attack villages and kill or kidnap the civillians. Throughout the games, we see lots of civillians being attacked, assaulted, or kidnapped (and as a player, you get rewarded for saving them). Men, women, and children are all shown among them. Later, when the player first encouters Synn, she summons the Lich whom you engage in a boss fight. Later, she is encoutered again, and turns into a giant red dragon, and Final Boss. When defeated, she tries one last time to awaken The Fiend and have it destroy the whole land, but (for some awkward reason) airships show up and shoot the Fiend down. (Shame, it would be an epic Final Boss fight, but whatever).

Heinous?

As I said, I barely know about D&D, but assuming this game takes place in a different universe from tabletop games, she passes it easily. She is the Big Bad, and having monsters slaughter villages, and wanting to unleash an Eldritch Abomination that would destroy the whole land, I think she passes.

Characterization?

That's tricky. It's arcade beat-em-up, and those are unlikely to have villains with enough characterization... but I actually think she has more characterization that any other character. We do see her portraits and she does talk a lot, and I would say her motivations are clear. She wanted to rule the world, but when her minion Lich Deimos got defeated, she just wanted to kill everyone for revenge. I am not sure, but I think she might have barely enough. You guys decide.

Verdict?

Not sure... but she might count. By the way, I might have another Anna Maria Wesołowska candidate proposed based on the episode I just watched.

Edited by emperors on Oct 19th 2020 at 3:03:56 PM

Fun game, but not sure Synn's characterized enough. Abstain.

I agree with you that it sucks you don't get to fight the Fiend.

Nay to Vance, nay to Synn. Death Adder at least got cutscenes and Lore, Synn doesn't have that.

Vance (close but not quite their) and synn (is this an adaption of a module from the tabletpp. Maybe shed count their )

Terribly sorry to hear that, Georgie, sending you all the best and hoping you're safe!

Unfortunate 'No' to Vance and Synn, Vance sounds bad but for the franchise not quite enough, great proposals nonetheless!

Alright, before another batch comes, lemme go ahead and knock this one out:

• Zodiac is a knowingly evil lover of chaos and wickedness, who makes it his life's mission to cause as much random destruction in life as possible. Appearing in Dark Reign: Zodiac, Zodiac tortures over a hundred people to death to send a message to Norman Osborn, then viciously beats the Human Torch to near death before bombing the hospital he is transported to, killing almost everyone inside. Later unleashing a giant robot onto a city that kills hundreds more, Zodiac uses the chaos to pull off even more murderous schemes. Decorating his hideout in severed heads and manipulating his partners into servitude even while he endangers their lives with zero concern, Zodiac ends up using the teen supervillain gang the Young Masters to declare war on the old guard of supervillains, leading to terrorist attacks across the world—notably Latveria—that ends countless lives. Believing himself to be a harbinger of a new, better evil to plague the world, Zodiac plans to change the entire game of heroes and villains, downright gleeful over the lives that will be lost.

Edited by Ravok on Oct 19th 2020 at 12:23:27 PM

Wow, Georgie, that sounds scary! Call the police and keep your brother safe! Best wishes!