During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Cross-wired freak
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
From the original Book canon, Morgoth, Sauron and Ar-Pharazon. I'm not sure about secondary canons like the movies and games; i know that one orc from the Hobbit movies caused a HUGE fight but I can't remember what the end result was.
"The Juice is Loose."
I am pretty sure Azog is up along with one other from the movies. I don't know about the games side though.
There was also two versions of Sauron from video games (Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor and Conquest), Lheu Brenin from Lord of the Rings Online, and there was also Saruman from the films, in addition to Azog.
Also, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the second Vichama quote.
Edited by DrUnknown on Sep 24th 2020 at 11:38:33 AM
The wifi here sucks
So that's 8 from Tolken
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Yeah. IIRC, we thought about making a page, but decided to wait for the upcoming Amazon series.
"The Juice is Loose."
Edit: Nevermind. I counted wrong. Yeah 8.
Again I was just curious.
Edited by Bullman on Sep 24th 2020 at 2:22:59 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Also, for the Footprint of Mussolini? Yes, is Goebbels
In such a desperate state, one would have thought that Himmler and Goebbels were planning on going undercover for life. Perhaps going undercover and hiding in an obscure corner of the world until the day they died. Remarkably, that’s not what they intended at all. Himmler and Goebbels intended to catch a submarine stationed on the Baltic, escape the Allied Naval blockade from Scandanavia, loop around Russia and end up in friendly Japan, where they would ‘rally the forces’ from abroad. Himmler assured Goebbels that the Japanese system of honor would ensure they would never succumb to treasonous mutiny, and the Americans would be forced to cut terms, especially given the new strategy Japanese leaders had decided on.
The pair left Berlin in mid-October, just before the pincers sealed shut. Magda Goebbels had originally intended to commit suicide (along with murdering her children) but Himmler convinced her that a suitable deal could be reached if they waited it out in Japan – the family would survive the war, though with varying fates. Himmler assured her that it would be no time whatsoever until the ‘Unholy Alliance of Bourgeois Capitalsm, Judeo-Bolshevism and Negroid Fascism’ would rip each other apart. Then, there would be an opening for National Socialism to come again in glory in Germany. Right until the noose, Himmler invented a new reality for himself that psychologists have debated for decades. Was he suffering from a brain tumour? Stress? The debate goes on.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 24th 2020 at 2:09:42 PM
Watch me destroying my country
The Draftsman of Doom
We interrupt this train of thought to bring you another effortpost from the Draftsman of Doom himself.
What is the work?
The Turning Point is a 1952 Film Noir.
Prosecutor John Conroy and reporter Jerry McKibbon attempt to weed out a criminal syndicate in their city, and discover that John's own police officer father Matt may be involved in the conspiracy. Meanwhile, the racketeers, led by Neil Eichelberger, become increasingly ruthless.
Who is Neil Eichelberger and what has he done?
Neil Eichelberger masquerades as a respectable and civilized businessman, but in truth, is a ruthless loan shark and racketeer who intimidates anyone who would bear witness against him.
When Jerry McKibbon releases a story in order to pressure a witness into testifying, Eichelberger retaliates by arranging the assassination of Officer Matt Conroy, the father of Prosecutor John Conroy, having the assassin killed for good measure.
During the ensuing hearing, Eichelberger tries to downplay his illegal activities as "lending money to friends". However, witness testimony puts Eichelberger at risk.
So, Eichelberger, against the objections of his subordinates (who even suggest he engineer some heroics), has not just the office of his illegal dealings burned, but the building full of innocent people along with it.
Finally, upon discovering that there is another witness against him, Eichelberger sends his men to pursue her, and eventually make an attempt on her life.
It makes no difference, because, not only does the witness survive, but evidence of Matt's corruption bites Eichelberger in the ass.
Heinousness?
Neil sends his men to intimidate an old woman, has had people assassinated offscreen, has a police officer formerly on his payroll assassinated along with the perpetrator, burns a building full of innocent people to cover up his shady dealings, and attempts to have another witness killed. Admittedly, this is my first 50's film noir, but that seems pretty nasty to me.ETA: The fire is what does it for me. At least 12-16 corpses.
In the film itself? Most of the atrocities in the film can be traced to him (especially those mentioned above).
To make a long story short? Big Bad. sets it.
Mitigating Factors?
Eichelberger doesn't seem to particularly care about his subordinates outside of their usefulness to him.
He has no tragic backstory, no impaired agency, and he has enough on screen to be seen as a genuinely menacing figure.
There are some scenes where the court laughs at some people's testimony, because those witnesses are socially inept, but Eichelberger himself is still played with the gravity one would expect from an actual scary mob boss.
There is a scene where he advises a subordinate not to kill Jerry, and where he notes that killing Matt Conroy was a mistake, but that is pragmatic villainy at its finest, and does little to offset how ruthless he is. It is also worth noting that he still sends someone after the woman who was going to testify against him.
Verdict?
Contender.Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 24th 2020 at 3:54:27 PM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
The building fire is the only reason he's worth scrutiny. Assuming "building full of innocent people" isn't just "three or four background extras" I'll say yes to him.
The Draftsman of Doom
It was definitely way more than 3 or 5.
Admittedly, the fire is what did it for me.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 24th 2020 at 3:26:17 PM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Slight to Neil Eichelberger.
Yeah, for Himmler, I'm not sure if that would qualify as Pragmatic Villainy, so there may be a mitigating quality for him, though that's just my opinion.
"The Juice is Loose."
Slight yes to Neil.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Caesar
Speaking of the Amazon Lord of the Rings series, seeing as emperors dropped his reservation for it? I'll scoop it up, if no one minds. Would be great to get a Tolkien Keeper for myself.
EDIT: Hell, while I'm at it? I'll grab up the 2021 Gollum game, too.
'Yes' to Neil
- Less Than Zero: Rip is a slimy drug dealer whose crooked slinging of abusive substances leads to the ruination of addict Julian's life. Always prowling around for new young people to addict to drugs and rack up profits, Rip allows Julien to drive up such a debt to him that Julian spends most of his time depressed and broke, at which point Rip takes advantage of the drugged up Julian to forcibly turn him into a prostitute and pimp him out to wealthy men. Even when Julian tries to get clean and pay Rip back, Rip just manipulates Julian into using again and once more forces him into prostitution, and all while threatening Julian's friends. Julian eventually dies from all the horrible abuse he's been through, something Rip callously predicted would come to pass earlier in the film with casual indifference.
- Grant Morrison's Batman: Lord Death Man is a bombastic, happily evil supervillain who desires to bring anarchy and "meaningless crime" to Japan in the name of villainy. Though first attacking Gotham years ago, Lord Death Man's penchant for surviving when he is killed allows him to amass a criminal gang and set up shop in Tokyo, Japan, where Lord Death Man begins murdering the local superhero population. Burning Mr. Unknown's hands, eyes, then entire face off with acid to torture and murder him then trying to kill the girlfriend of Unknown's sidekick, Lord Death Man stages an attack on a hospital where he brutally stabs several doctors to death. Setting off a bomb he placed on a disabled childrens' bus, then blowing up the entire hospital and everyone inside, Lord Death Man goes on a murder spree across Tokyo with his car, running over and gunning down everyone in his path and killing entire families. Returning on last time, Lord Death Man blows up an entire space station filled with his own allies just to claim the lives of several young superheroes, proclaiming his love for murder and desire for a hero-free world to the end.
Edited by Ravok on Sep 24th 2020 at 1:14:45 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
How many people were in that building? Can you give a rough estimate?
EDIT: I will say to Niel because, according to the trope page, there were “multiple families” in the building, but I just want to be sure.
Edited by MasterN on Sep 24th 2020 at 12:45:44 PM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
The Draftsman of Doom
I saw at least 12-16 corpses, if I counted correctly.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 24th 2020 at 3:52:51 PM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Go ahead with it.
The Draftsman of Doom
I need to brush up on film noir and mob boss heinousness. Just so that I don't have a moment where a candidate is weaker than I think.
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I think, considering when they were made, we can be a little more lenient with noir mob bosses than, say, modern-era mob bosses.
Sure to Neil.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
neil
The Draftsman of Doom
- The Turning Point (1952): Neil Eichelberger masquerades as a respectable and civilized businessman, but in truth, is a ruthless loan shark and racketeer who intimidates anyone who would bear witness against him. When the journalist Jerry McKibbon releases a story in order to pressure a witness into testifying, Eichelberger retaliates by arranging the assassination of Officer Matt Conroy, the father of Prosecutor John Conroy, having the assassin killed for good measure. Jeopardized by testimony at a hearing, Eichelberger has the building above the office storing incriminating evidence burned down in an attempt to conceal the evidence's destruction, resulting in the deaths of several civilians.
ETA: Cautious no to Himmler while I'm at it.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 24th 2020 at 5:00:53 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Yes to Neil but given how little detail is given about Himmler's action, I'm gonna play it safe and say no there.
to Neil.
@Kazuya Yeah, that's a little too ambiguous for me to be fully comfortable upvoting. Barring some indication that it's purely pragmatic or that he doesn't actually care about her, I'm not entirely sure I can vote up in good conscience. Thanks for being forthcoming about this.
Are there any others who might qualify?
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Sep 24th 2020 at 2:21:20 AM
Out of curiosity. How many Tolkien's Legendarium keepers do we have? Again just curious.
Edited by Bullman on Sep 24th 2020 at 1:25:46 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread