During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I feel like any "redeeming qualities" is solely just so he can get what he wants, and that he'll just throw them away once he suceeds.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Mask duo (you know there should really be a show more similar to the comics than the movies were)
Edited by nwotyzal on Mar 26th 2020 at 3:35:14 AM
Keep Facilier.
to the Mask duo and keep Facilier
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Keep Facilier. For reasons others have said. He is just heinous enough to count, his excuse doesn't hold up, his death is not sympathetic, and he doesn't have any redeeming qualities.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The wifi here sucks
Keep Facillier, I don't remember the film too well but his death isn't Alas, Poor Villain, the heroes' reactions were just shock and horror at seeing a bunch of demons drag a man to his death. I'm not willing to count some sight implications as a Freudian Excuse especially since he's willing to murder other black people and the line he said was spoken to a white man, which to me shows that he's more motivated by simple greed than anything else. Also, just because he didn't originally plan to sacrifice the people of New Orleans doesn't mean that he shouldn't be held accountable for attempting to so later, plans change and he still intended to kill them. Finally the Disney films aren't in canon with each other and thus don't share a heinousness standard.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Goku Black
Keep Facillier.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
To be a Master
Facilier is a man who is willingly to do anything to climb the ranks and a man who's willingly to do anything is a man ripe to be a Complete Monster. Then there's the fact that Facilier could have been a helpful Voodoo practitioner with the costumers, but seems to always be screwing them over with Be Careful What You Wish For, like that poor sap with the bald head. And considering his laughter, it's quite clear he gets a kick out of seeing other people's misery.
In short, a classical villain who has enough heinous to pass the line.
Edited by Shadao on Mar 26th 2020 at 3:53:55 AM
The wifi here sucks
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
On the subject of the Disney page. I was looking through it the other day and I realized something. The TV Series section is a mess. I was wondering if we could do something to clean it up. Like make it by release date or just separate the ones connected to the Disney Animated Canon or the Live action and Animated ones.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 26th 2020 at 6:02:12 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yea to the Mask duo as well.
to the Mask duo and keeping Facilier
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I wouldn't be opposed. Honestly, I'm not so sure we need a Disney page. I mean, sure, keep the Animated Canon, the Live-Action Remakes, and related works (Lion Guard, Roger Rabbit since that contains Mickey), maybe a few others.
To be a Master
It could be like the DC Animation Page.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, or Marvel Animation.
Maybe just keep works that involve Disney properties. So, Duck Tales and Darkwing Duck yes, Dick Tracy and Mighty Joe Young no. Pirates probably, Kingdom Hearts probably, Kilala probably not.
Holy hell, that might just be more trouble than it's worth.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Which is why I just wanted to fix the TV section. Like separate the ones connected to the Disney Animated Canon and the Live Action TV ones from the others.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 26th 2020 at 6:15:34 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, that may be the best choice ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
I'll work on that tomorrow? And submit it with the other stuff Saturday.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Draftsman of Doom
Mask duo. Facilier is going absolutely nowhere as far as I'm concerned.
Also, suggestions for name potholes at Bellisarioverse: Gunman with Three Names for Boone, Corrupt Hick for Landis, and I Am a Humanitarian Faux Affably Evil for Karen Bright.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 26th 2020 at 7:29:50 AM
Rawr.
Goku Black
Is Karen a cannibal ?
I don't remember that.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Finally done with my finals as of an hour ago so hopefully I'll be able to participate here more regularly again (and I'll finally do the Lady of the Green Kirtle writeup this weekend, sorry about the delay there)
Definitely keep Facilier- his Freudian Excuse is only implied and it has nothing to do with him trying to sacrifice millions of people to demons, the amount of innocent people he would kill is highly unusually heinous and awful for a Disney film and we actually see the effects of it on-screen, and his "redeeming qualities" are just either him being pragmatic (he needed Lawrence to cooperate for his plan to work, offering him some cash to get him to play along had nothing to do with any sort of sympathy for him) or him being sadistic and wanting to break the heroes (keeping Tiana alive stuck as a frog just so she can see him win)
Edited by WaryHoglet on Mar 26th 2020 at 4:33:02 AM
to Papa Croc and Ogoun.
Am I the only one to find something wrong with Lighty's argument against including Rogsam and Yuguro?
Masayoshi Shido from Persona 5 uses his son to assassinate those he no longer needs, frames the protagonist for assault, and decides to kill his son in the end. Kamoshida from the same game leaks the protagonist's criminal record and his sexual abuse drives one of his victims to suicide, though she ends up surviving. Scar from The Lion King (1994) kills his brother and blames it on his nephew. And they've been approved by the thread.
Rogsam was responsible for the deaths of ten: his brother, his brother's physician (whom he used to usurp the throne), and the best youths from eight of the nine clans in his country. He might kill them all indirectly, but his framing Jiguro for treason as an excuse to use Jiguro's genius for spear-wielding to eliminate threats to his absolute rule sounds heinous to me.
As for whether Yuguro is reckless or malicious, Laloog says it best, that he's "not a fool, but rather dangerously hard-hearted". Yuguro knows the hyohlu can read the minds of men and kill anyone at will, but he plans to overthrow the Mountain King and gain free access to luisha anyway because he considers his prestige more important than the safety of his more than several hundred men.
Edited by IukaSylvie on Mar 26th 2020 at 9:04:59 PM
Again: I have issues with how the EP is written and even if Rogsam makesit, I see no argument for Yuguro. That's not me admitting he makes it, either.
Edited by Lightysnake on Mar 26th 2020 at 5:05:54 AM
Could you tell me what's wrong with my proposal so I can understand?
Lizzid people!
What put Scar up was the fact that he was willing to allow his subjects to starve to death rather than relocate. With Simba, he also psychologically manipulated him as a child to believe that he killed his own father.
Edited by AustinDR on Mar 26th 2020 at 5:06:40 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Mask duo and keep Facilier
Read "Ghost Stories of Remnant" here.