During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lizzid people!
Slight "yes" for Thanatos. And "yes" for Shiva.
Edited by AustinDR on Nov 9th 2019 at 12:38:28 PM
I'll flip to a yes on Thanatos as well.
Gentle Laborer
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Trager's past actions are Offscreen Villainy, and Blaire is vastly worse than him, considering he is in charge of Murkoff. That's not even mentioning Sullivan from the sequel, the Serial Rapist who sacrifices his own children. Before anyone asks, agency is a major issue for both, as they were exposed to the Walrider and the Murkoff signals respectively.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Get ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
'd
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Nov 9th 2019 at 6:58:38 PM
Goku Black
Dont all outlast badguys except Blair have serious agency issues from what Ive heard.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Lady Shiva. (Not that one.)
Funny how we are upvoting a candidate from a work with a hero named Seneca just days after we upvoted a candidate named Seneca.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Shiva. Abstain on Carmona and Trager.
@The Mad Cr0w Yes Jeremy Blaire was the one in charge and I'm not saying he's a good guy at all, but Trager was no saint himself either. He was mentally unstable before he was exposed to Walrider and the Engine. And it wasn't Offscreen Villainy, it was literally shown in the webcomic called "The Murkoff Account".
It's like how Lucas Baker from Resident Evil 7 starved a little boy to death in his attic and was implied to have an incestuous fixation on his sister Zoe for two decades before Eveline came along and possessed him and his family, and he's listed as a Complete Monster. They were both terrible people before the infections hit them; the infections just thrived on their already unstable nature.
Also, Knoth wasn't always evil. Before Murkoff came long, he was just a shoe salesman.
Edited by JEM12901 on Nov 9th 2019 at 1:14:22 AM
Gentle Laborer
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I kinda already said that Sullivan was the victim of a Brown Note. And no, Lucas is not under the Mold's influence, unlike Jack and Marguerite. In contrast, there's nothing special about Trager that separates him from the other Variants.
He's a solid ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Nov 9th 2019 at 7:24:01 AM
to Trager.
Goku Black
Btw me and lighty will be resevring the 2020 netflix adaptation of There's somone inside your house (directed by James Wan. Yes). We'll see if David does enough for a new entry.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
@The Mad Cr0w I know you did, I was just trying not to sound biased in my argument. And yeah I know Lucas managed to cure himself of the Mold with help from the Connections, it's just that I saw Lucas (rightfully) listed as a Complete Monster since he was always The Sociopath and so was Trager to an extent, so I just wanted to see why he wasn't listed as one too.
You make some good points. to Trager.
Edited by JEM12901 on Nov 9th 2019 at 1:29:44 AM
Wilson, Carmona and Shiva
Trager, but I encourage you to bring him up on the Hate Sink thread if you haven't already.
to Shiva and Carmona
to Dr. Jonah Delcourt Wilson and Shiva.
The Draftsman of Doom
Wilson, Carmona and Shiva.
Trager.
I can chase the wind, I can race the rain
Carmona, Shiva Trager
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, for In Death Lighty? There's a reason Eve "handles murders on a strangely constant basis"...she's with Homicide ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
I filed the cuts for the two fathers BTW. And I may have The Groom EP by next weekend.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
OH, shush.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
(No hard feelings?)
Also, good lord, The Groom is a SADISTIC asshole.
Edited by ACW on Nov 9th 2019 at 6:04:00 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
@acw : For Christopher from The Silver Kiss wouldn't Undead Child work better then Creepy Child
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Shit, I didn't even know Undead Child was a trope
Change requested.
Edited by ACW on Nov 9th 2019 at 6:14:00 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Alrighty...got a surprise one...from Warhammer of all things...This requires some explanation of a dubiously canon work. This is from Warhammer Fantasy:
What's the work?
Drachenfels is the first novel by Jack Yeovil, actually a pen name for British horror/fantasy writer and critic Kim Newman....this introduces us to his star heroine Genevieve Sandrine du Point du lac Dieudonne, a vampire of six centuries. Interestingly, Newman would later introduce Genevieve as the heroine of his Anno Dracula series...but anyways. Genevieve is one of a group of Ragtag Bunch of Misfits who fights into the heart of the wicked monstrous Constant Drachenfels and destroys him...that's the prologue.
From the tropes page? Twenty five years later, Detlef Sierck, the Empire's greatest playwright, is rescued from debtor's prison by the Crown Prince Oswald. Oswald, the aforementioned brave prince, has a simple proposition for Detlef: he wants to produce a play about his defeat of the Great Enchanter Drachenfels, and he wants Detlef to write and star in it. The surviving members of the original band who traveled with Oswald are reunited for the play's premiere, a one-time performance staged in the very walls of Drachenfels' abandoned fortress, attended by all the nobility of the Empire
What could go wrong, right...? Let's talk...Constant Drachenfels.
Who is Drachenfels?
15,000 years ago, there lived a nomadic tribe of humans during the fantasy ice age...the man who would be Constant Drachenfels was abandoned to die...drawing on dark powers he didn't realize he had, before Chaos entered the world, he drained a man of life. He began to kill others to prolong his existence, his body rotting as he created new ones out of the rotting remains of many victims.
Becomign a conqueror and establishing his own armies in the Old World, Drachenfels launched a series of horrific campaigns with countless beings slaughtered, tortured, enslaved, etc. He also waltzed into the Warp and looked upon the Chaos gods....and declared them to be his subordinates who would give him Daemon forces in tribute. They obliged every time.
Drachenfels proceeded to enact horrible attacks constantly, killing countless beings each time, taking captives to torture and to consume their souls and enhance his life, keeping them in horrific states to torture and trap forever....the first defeat he suffered was the human champion Sigmar when Drachenfels was helping the Necromancer Nagash...Sigmar thought he killed Drachenfels, to no avail....Drachenfels regenerated over the next thousand years and attacked an Imperial providence, massacring the nobility. Genevieve was a survivor, losing her father, before she became a vampire.
Drachenfels then presented himself to the empire some decades later, pinky swearing he had turned over a brand new undead leaf and paid reparations...begging forgiveness at the graves of his victims. The people bought it and he summoned the court of the Empire to a banquet to proclaim eternal friendship.
...and then used a paralyzing poison to freeze them in place, had their children tortured to death in earshot and left them, still frozen overlooking an incredible feast to slowly starve to death. Quoth one MB on this: What the actual fuck?
Cause that's how Drachenfels rolls....one of the few survivors of the kids was one Elector Count Oswald von Konigswald, who eventually led tht group with Genevieve to destroy Drachenfels...and they succeeded. Or so they thought.
Instead, Oswald was a power hungry prick. Drachenfels let Oswald 'kill' him to let Oswald be a hero, taking heat off Drachenfels, sacrificing a lot of servants...now, when Oswald comissions the play from Detlef? Drachenfels possesses an actor, intending on bulldozing the Empire, killing loads of people and reaping their souls. He also shows Genevieve the awful thing he's done with the souls of his victims...including, possibly, her father. Drachenfels slaughtered a bunch of the cast and audience. It's left to Genevieve and friends to destroy him, and things come to a head. Oswald is killed and the power of Sigmar blesses Detlef and Genevieve, who summon that strength and strike Drachenfels down...destroying him for good and all.
Hopefully.
Heinous standard?
See above. Drachenfels is like on par with Nagash for atrocity, and his weird continuity status makes it even more pronounced. What he did what the banquet is...unique and he outstrips almost everyone for atrocity...nevermind his little soul thing. Yes, pass here. Big time.
Mitigating Qualities?
No, nope, never and none. The books were released at the onset of the 90s and things have been retconned to hell and back since, but the Genevieve stuff is crazy popular, so it gets referenced as obliquely canon...there's tons of arguments, but whatever, we're not here for that. No, Drachenfels has zero problems with keeping and nothing good to him. He's a sadistic monster and the Vandal Savage of WH.
conclusion?
Heck to the yes.
Goku Black
Drachenfels
Fuck I just went on that trope page right know when I say it's link in Undead Child. Was about to ask on him.
First for mr. Newman
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yay to Wilson and Shiva.
RIP KissAnime.