During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Switching back to yes regarding a pound of Brixton.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 20th 2019 at 10:02:58 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Solon and Thales.
Solon and Thales.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to Solon and Thales and solidified my yes with Brixton
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Showtime!
to solon and thales
I finally have some free time so let's get this done. It's quite a bit longer than the other Spelljammer entry, but I can't see any other way to shorten it.
Spelljammer: T'laan, from the Crystal Spheres module, is an ancient vampire that felt so much hatred and rage during his final moments that Death itself made a pact to turn him into an undead monstrosity to spread terror across the cosmos. Unique among vampires, T'laan kept his sanity by indulging his fascination with mortal life. He would experiment on and vivisect his victims while they were still alive, and would abduct women to rape them only to murder them when his undead state kept him from feeling lust. In his early days in undeath, T'laan came upon a backwater planet and turned countless people into his vampyric slaves and set them on a genocide of all life on the world. His actions were so depraved that all native life was extinguished and the native star blackened out, forever turning the crystal sphere into an undead haven called Dark Space. T'laan devoured all his children and moved on to a new solar system called Great Space where he learned from his mistakes. He charmed his way into the ruling family, murdered the beloved king, and blamed his death on the king's son and sent assassins after him to ensure his death as well. T'laan created a powerful artifact that blackened out Great Space's sun to end all life there as well, but ensured his survival by kidnapping countless innocents to use as cattle back in his lair in Dark Space.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Aug 20th 2019 at 8:00:06 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Solon, Thales and Brixton
As for Zodiac? I say ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
. Too damn mysterious, and half the motives he states are agency-impairing.
Ultimate Moral Compass
FE duo
Shin Megami Tensei IV
to Solon and Thales, abstain on Brixton.
Goku Black
solon and Thales
to Brixton
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to Solon, Thales and Brixton.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
to Solon and Thales.
Wild Child
Solon and Thales. Anyways....
What's the Work?
Night Trap is an eight-issue comic by Cullen Bunn. Paying homage to B-movies and classic video games, the comic follows the stereotypical slasher movie format following a group of teenagers who vacation at a cabin in the woods and find themselves hunted down by a group of psychopathic killers.
And the leader of the killers? James "Jimmy" Auger, aka the Trapper.
Who Is He? What Does He Do?
One of the most notorious and wanted men in America, "Uncle" Jimmy is the head of the Auger Clan and is wanted by authorities for the brutal deaths of sixteen people in three states (sixteen that they know off). Devising a hunt for a group of college girls, Jimmy and the Augers spend days building death traps within the cabin and around the woods in preparation for their "prey". Once the group arrives at the cabin, the Augers proceed to subject them to a series of incredibly gruesome deaths, including jamming a wooden stake through a guy's skull; melting a girl's skin off by adding unknown substances in the shower; electrocuting another to death; firing a series of nails into a man's face before finishing him and another girl off by blowing up their car. He also has an old man killed when he attempts to warn the group.
One of the girls, Kelly, is revealed to have been a survivor of a previous massacre by Jimmy, and she and the other survivor, Cindy, manage to turn the tables on the Augers and kill them. Cindy faces Jimmy on combat and sets him ablaze, but he nonetheless skewers Kelly, seemingly killing her. To avoid burning to death, Jimmy plunges into the lake, during which Cindy kills the sole female member of the Augers with one of their own death traps. Eventually, a horribly injured Jimmy emerges from the lake, ranting about taking revenge....only to be decapitated moments later by Cindy, who then leaves with an injured, but still living, Kelly.
Mitigating factors?
No. The only hint given for his murders is that he watched a lot of slasher movies and decided to copy them. That's it. He also isn't shown reacting to any of the other Augers' deaths.
While the comic pays homage to slasher fics, Jimmy is given a talkative and explicitly sadistic personality, and the gruesome way he kills his victims pushes him over the line, imo.
Final Verdict?
I'd say keep.
Why so serious?
Gentle Laborer
Handsome Head of Hyperion
to Jimmy.
Even though he might not count, I have decided to do a proposal on the Zodiac Killer/Arthur Leigh Allen from Zodiac. I am writing this effortpost based on both the film and the screenplay.
What's the work?
Zodiac is a 2007 crime film directed by David Fincher telling a dramatized story of the infamous Zodiac killings in the 70s and 80s.
Who is the Zodiac Killer? What has he done?
The Zodiac Killer is an insane Serial Killer who is, in this film, all but confirmed to be Arthur Leigh Allen.
Leigh, fired from an elementary school after he was found to be molesting the children, got drunk one night and bragged to some of his friends that he was going to go on a killing spree and call himself the Zodiac.
Months later, the Zodiac Killer struck, killing a young couple by stabbing them and later shooting another couple. Later, the Zodiac shot another young couple in their car, killing the woman, Darlene, and nearly killing the man. It is later revealed that Arthur Leigh was an obsessive stalker of Darlene, who was his neighbor. The same night that Darlene was shot, several of her family and friends were called by the Zodiac, who just breathed heavily into the phones to mock them.
Continuing his spree, the Zodiac approached a couple at an isolated lake, lying to them that he was a prisoner who had escaped and saying he just wanted their wallets. After tying them up, he viciously stabbed the couple, killing the woman and leaving the man near-death, but he ultimately survived. Arthur Leigh was later seen with bloody knives in his car the next day, which he brushed off by claiming he had killed a chicken with them to eat.
The Zodiac began sending in messages to the newspapers, giving details only he could know about the crimes and bragging that he enjoys hunting "the most dangerous animal" and kills because it's fun and he believes that everyone he kills will be his slave in the afterlife. The references to the "most dangerous animal" are drawn to the book and move The Most Dangerous Game, about a man who hunts down humans for sport, and is one of Arthur Leigh's favorite books.
Then shooting a cabbie and cutting off parts of his bloody clothing as further proof that he is the real Zodiac, the Zodiac continues sending messages, taunting that he will kill an entire school bus of children, then, after the city is thrown into turmoil, later sending another note mocking the police for believing such an outlandish statement and throwing the city into turmoil for no reason.
When the reporter Paul Avery puts out an article calling the Zodiac a "latent homosexual," the Zodiac sends him a threatening letter with a piece of the cabbie's clothing attached, again proving it is him. The Zodiac continues to claim ownership of several other crimes, however these are all disproven to be him, and it is revealed that he is an Attention Whore who will take credit for things that aren't his own doing.
Though the Zodiac sends a letter to popular lawyer saying "please help me, I cannot stop myself and I fear I will kill again," this was copying a similar killer's own (more genuine) letter of confession and plea for help, and it is noted that the Zodiac could be using this just as much for attention as for genuine sympathy.
The Zodiac later is seen saying in a seemingly final letter to the police that he will from now on kill in secrecy and claim killings of his own later. Arthur Leigh, wearing his trademark Zodiac watch, is interviewed by police around this time, and immediately after the interview, he was spotted by neighbors cleaning out his trailer. When, a few weeks later, police get a warrant for his trailer, they find nothing of note, even as the protagonist Robert Graysmith points out that Leigh had ample time to clean out his trailer, as neighbors repeatedly said he did. All the police find are dead, frozen squirrels stuffed into Leigh's freezer.
The Zodiac begins calling Graysmith at all hours of the night, heavily breathing into his phone to intimidate him. Years later, the Zodiac begins contacting the police again, bragging about his plans to start a new crime spree, but when Arthur Leigh is arrested for an unrelated crime, the Zodiac messages mysteriously stop.
When Arthur Leigh was released, on top of him sending a vaguely mocking note to the detective in charge of the Zodiac investigation, Toschi, the Zodiac himself began contacting police yet again.
Eventually, Graysmith and Toschi, through much of the evidence, conclude that Arthur Leigh is the Zodiac. Near the end of the film, Graysmith approaches Leigh at a grocery store, where Leigh recognizes him and, as the screenplay says, "he frowns. Then he transforms. We see how truly terrifying this man could really be."
Graysmith, convinced that Arthur Leigh is the Zodiac, goes about his life and writes a book about the events. In the screenplay, years later, a detective informs an aged Graysmith that they're re-opening the case on Arthur Leigh, and the detective is convinced Leigh is the Zodiac. When police bring in one of the Zodiac's only surviving victims who saw his face, they offer him a line-up of faces, and the man quickly picks out one face of them: Arthur Leigh Allen.
The film and screenplay end with the information that Leigh was seemingly cleared of the crimes thanks to inconclusive handwriting samples, and he died some months later of natural causes. Also to note, when Leigh died, Graysmith stopped receiving those intimidating phone calls of heavy breathing.
Does the Zodiac have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
In the letter the Zodiac sent to the lawyer Melvin Belli, he says "Please help me, I cannot stop", but as I said, it is pointed out that this could easily just be for further attention, and every letter before and after this one had nothing but the Zodiac bragging that "killing is fun", he enjoyed "hunting the most dangerous animal", and that he believed that everyone he killed would be his slave in the afterlife.
Given that it is only one note in a long string of other, more mocking ones, and the point is made by the more logical characters that the Zodiac wanted attention, it is hard to find this as a believable moment of genuine pleading
As for if the Zodiac has sufficient personality/an actual identity, the film and screenplay both end on the idea that it is Arthur Leigh. The note that he was cleared because of handwriting is noted in the film to not be an absolute methodology, and every marker points at Leigh by the end. Leigh himself is a convicted pedophile who acts pitiful while being interviewed, but is expressly seen to have an intimidating, terrifying side when confronted by Graysmith at the end.
And even should the belief that he isn't Leigh prevail, the Zodiac nonetheless is shown to be a manipulative bastard (convincing a couple he was only going to rob them to lower their guards), and his letters show a mocking sadism. He was once said on the thread to have no more personality than Michael Myers or Jason Voorhees, but this is simply not true.
Is the Zodiac sufficiently heinous?
Definitely. Even though how many of the killings he claims ownership of is never fully confirmed (bragging over 30+), at least 7 murders are absolutely confirmed (shooting a couple, stabbing a couple, shooting another couple but only killing the woman, stabbing another couple but only killing the woman, and shooting the cabbie), and he has others attempted. And, taking into account Leigh's actions, he is also a pedophile who molested children.
Final Verdict?
This will be a tough one. There are several faker Zodiacs in the movie and screenplay, but it also makes clear when the actual Zodiac is involved in a situation, with the story taking pains to differentiate his boasted crimes with those that can be proven and confirmed. The film and screenplay end on the idea that Arthur Leigh is the Zodiac, and even if that's not true in real life, this is a dramatization and the story—especially the screenplay—leave it all at Leigh's feet.
I personally say , I think that there is enough personality to the Zodiac, his one letter of seeming remorse is brushed off as trying to spark more attention from the media, and all signs point to Leigh being the killer by the end.
I can definitely see disagreements abounding however, and am willing to see him voted down without major issue.
Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Aug 20th 2019 at 11:55:10 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to Zodiac and Jimmy
Fire emblem duo, Traper and Zodiac.
Gentle Laborer
Having watched Zodiac? Zodiac gets a , the movie may imply that Arthur is the man behind the killings and by extension giving him a Historical Villain Upgrade, but we still never get the confirmation that he was in fact Zodiac. The last minutes of the film are there to give us some Alternative Character Interpretation and that's it, he never confesses and we still don't know the truth. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i remember the movie showing us a copycat who intended to kill a baby.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Aug 21st 2019 at 4:26:54 PM
Goku Black
Zodiac
Since we never even find out who the hell he is
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Traper
Abstain on the Zodiac
to Jimmy. Abstain on Zodiac.
To be fair with Cornelia, she does have some of the very worst moments when it comes inflicting pain in the individual level with Dimitri. Exiling him, revealing a love one of his was also responsible for the most horrible moments of his life, and even being responsible of the tragedy of Duscar which was the massacre of the royal family and the genocide of the people of Duscar due to being frame for the killing.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir