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I just woke up and I see the votes on KH Scar have changed. I just want a chance to address some of the arguments against him:

"I have no opposition to putting up Scar from the remake, ditto the one from the fanfic, but I'm a hard "no" to KH!Scar and I wish people would be treating this with more scrutiny. The effortpost is bloating Scar's actions with weasel words, Fridge Horror, fluff and some outright misinformation to try and boost Scar's standing; his regular actions aren't and can't be treated with the singular awfulness they are in the movie because he's sharing a standard with a litany of other Disney villains like CLU and Frollo (both of whom we've already turned down), his new actions boil down to "trying to kill the heroes", and like Polar said, nowhere was it stated anywhere Scar wants to destroy the Pride Lands. When he's killed, he just turns into the Ground Shaker which is just another generic Heartless boss that's treated just like any other generic Heartless boss. I'm all for encouraging different opinions in a debate thread, but in this case I'd rather not see Scar go up based on what looks like faulty information and gut feelings rather than a complete picture. We turned down the watered-down Frollo for not really standing out in his universe even though he still has stuff like his attempted genocide, so why should Scar be getting special treatment?"

Okay well, I don't know what these "weasel words" or "fluff" being referred to are, but as for the other things, Scar's crimes from the movie were brought up to give him his full rapsheet, and I will state that as far as I'm aware, not many Disney villains in the series are hero killers (Mufasa) like Scar is in the series. Heck, Kerchak is Spared by the Adaptation in the Tarzan world. I also don't recall as much dog kicking from them as blaming someone for their own father's death, making them confess to it, and taunting them by revealing they actually did it. Amongst the Disney villains as depicted in the series, that stuff seems a bit unique. I also would remind everyone that Scar's new actions do go above just trying to kill the heroes; he tries to cannibalize a teen lion cub, tries to kill his nephews pregnant wife, and tries to destroy the whole area and everyone in it twice. The attempted cannibalism isn't exactly fridge horror since the attempt was actually shown to us. He tried to eat Sora himself, stating he was "nice and fresh". The idea that he would continue doing this to any other lion cubs that wandered into the Pride Lands is fridge horror, but the explicit attempt on Sora isn't. As for destroying the Pride Lands, Pete pretty much spells it out: "Your kingdom's gonna rise again, but this time as the Pride Lands of darkness!" He's saying that the world is going to fall into darkness. Anyone who's played the games knows that when worlds fall into darkness, they and the inhabitants disappear, and all that's left are the Heartless. Pete's saying that Scar's going to plunge the world into darkness, meaning only he and the other Heartless will remain, everyone else will disappear. This is shown with multiple worlds in the series, when Heartless take over and the worlds fall to darkness, they disappear. Later, after becoming the Groundshaker, he was going to run wild and destroy everything. I know he lost his intelligence when his ghosts merged into the Groundshaker, but he still made the choice to have them do that and become it in the first place, so he's still responsible. As stated, other villains like Frollo are actually watered down, while Scar is made worse. The original Scar never tried to kill a pregnant Nala or eat another lion. There's also his attempt to plunge the Pride Lands into darkness upon becoming a Heartless and later merging his ghost avatars together and turning into a giant mindless monster that will destroy everything. This is a lot more than "trying to kill the heroes." As for Frollo, again, while he does have his attempt to eliminate all the gypsies, he's lacking in his other crimes in the movie, while Scar still has them. Plus, while Frollo wanted to eliminate the gypsies, Scar was going to plunge his whole world into darkness. Plus, he had his ghost avatars merge into a monster that would run wild and destroy the area. I truly fail to see how he's not above "same crimes from the film plus trying to kill the new heroes." Please, explain to me if I'm missing something here, I genuinely don't see where all the "weasel words, fluff, fried horror and misinformation" is coming from. I am being completely honest. Please think everything over before we finalize our votes.

@ Silverblade2 Ah ! I'm sorry! I forgot to check the to-do lists before entryposting Karpan! My bad! I'm really sorry!

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Aug 3rd 2019 at 10:56:14 AM

Now I just finished one movie to get off my too do list.

So I found out and watched that not only did Slender Man get his own movie back in 2018, but his famous Foil The Rake got one too last year. Albeit not with the same promotion or notoriety. It's take on the Rake is interesting to say the least. Thought it might be worth a shot.

Who is the Rake ? What does he/it do ?

Based off of the internet Urban Legend of the same name, this films take on the Rake takes cues from the Arrach of Scottish myth, and the more famous Wendigo. It is a sometimes corporal, sometime not, sadistic demonic being. It has an MO of possessing people, driving them insane, having them commit self mutilation and murder. We see this in it's current occupant is Jacob Murphy, a Serial Killer it driven insane and made carve himself up. One night in December, his psychologists family is preparing Christmas when Jacob warned his psychologist that the Rake wants him. Sure enough, Jacob shows up at his psychologists house and murders him and his wife, before cutting out his own eyes and addressing their traumatized children Ben and Ashley, tells them that the Rake will come after them too, before slitting his own throat.

Ben and Ashley were since taken into their cousin Nicole's family, with the encounter of course taking a toll over them over the years. The Rake has begun to haunt the siblings, but Ben is able to hide it better and live a seemingly more adjusted life with his girlfriend. Ashley on the other hand, was haunted by the Rake in visions and nightmares for years; the most scarring incident for Ashley was when she became pregnant and when she was planning to keep the baby, had constant nightmares of the Rake specifically wanting to take her baby. Because she was considered mentally unstable, her doctors suggested that she have an abortion. She does so, describing the abortion to be an emotionally and mentally taxing experience on her.

At the time of the movie, Ashley stays over with Nicole and her boyfriend Andrew, where Nicole announces her pregnancy, and there's a party held to celebrate it. The Rake returns to torment Ashley again, this time showing her dreams about her dead fetus, triggering her PTSD. Ben and Nicole are a little more understanding of Ashley's plight, but Andrew is kind of an asshole about it, treating Ashley like she's the problem. The point being that the Rake is back and has told Ashley the name Nicole intends on naming her baby, implying that the baby is the Rake's new target. When Ashley finally see's the Rake itself, it goes about the horror routine of picking off her friends and the other party guests. In pretty gruesome and mutilating ways, until it is down to Ashley, Ben and Nicole.

In the films Anti-Climax, Ashley tries to confront the Rake itself and charges it with a knife...except Ben (who doesn't see the Rake and thinks Ashley is the threat) shoots her instead, causing her to quickly bleed to death. Then the Rake possesses Ben, who then mutilates himself to death in front of a distressed Nicole. The film ends with an Ambigious Ending as the Rake fully manifests itself in front of a crying Nicole and menacingly reaches down towards her as police sirens and lights can be seen/heard not too far away.

Any mitigating factors ?

The Rake isn't depicted as some mindless animalistic creature as it usually is (with exception of Whispered Faith). Here it's portrayed as a sadistic tormenting demon. It is compared to the Wendigo as they describe it as a spirit that "infects" people as it goes from host to host.

It doesn't talk onscreen but what saves it from being a GDV is it displays a sadistic and cruel personality, not just in the way it kills it's victims, but likes to emotionally and mentally break them. While it doesn't talk on screen, it is described as speaking by its Mind Rape victims - such as naming specific targets, and communicates through visions and nightmares. And not only does it kill and torture in sadistic and brutal ways, it's psychological torment is especially twisted and shown on full display; I think what makes it especially bad was how it tormented Ashley into having a traumatic abortion by targeting her baby, and apparently intends to do the same to Nicole.

What do you think ?

No big deal Georgie! but can I still look into Ito Kazuki? Unsure on him for now but I'll need to recheck his stories.

Edited by Silverblade2 on Aug 3rd 2019 at 11:01:17 AM

I'm really not sure if Ito Kazuki manages to stand out compared to Karpan. That said, it's been a while since I've read the albums in which he appears, so maybe.

However, he may be worth a look in the Magnificent Bastard section, but I may be wrong. I'll need to re-read the books.

But hey, if you want to do Ito Kazuki, by all means, do it! In fact, since he's on your to-do list, you don't even have to ask for my permission! I'm no authority.

That said, sure to the Rake.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Aug 3rd 2019 at 11:11:57 AM

Yes to the Rake.

Switching to abstain on KH!Scar but @bobg, being a Hero Killer sounds like bog-standard villainy, especially compared to what other villains in the series apparently do.

Edited by falcontalons on Aug 3rd 2019 at 2:05:25 AM

Karpan and the Rake.

Kermis and Rake.

Will anyone else comment on Tobias? Kylotrope, Tyk and papryu voted keep.

to everyone I missed

Karpan and the Rake.

Abstain on Tobias.

I'll submit the Maciste tree tomorrow.

I'll guess I'll say "Yes" to Scar given Bob's points.

Yes to the Rake, but switching abstain on Scar as I to replayed that game myself at a friend's birthday party today and could go either way though I agree with falcontalons that killing a hero pretty standard compared to what some other villains do.

Edited by Bullman on Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:30:13 AM

karpan and rake.

Karpan and Rake.

I think I'm fine keeping Tobias.

I also am sticking with my vote for KH Scar. I still find the arguments against more compelling and there seems to be a fair bit of Fridge Horror in play here. It's been a while since I played it but I don't remember a lot of special attention being drawn to his attempted "cannibalism" or trying to kill a pregnant lion. I also don't remember it clearly stating his intent to destroy the Pride Lands. Talking about attempted cannibalism and attempted killings of pregnant women are what I believe Scraggle was referring to as "weasel words". They are technically accurate but phrased in a way to make it seem like things are portrayed in a more severe way than they actually were.

Rake and Karpan yes, but I agree with Tommy about Scar here. I've played the games and Scar is not played for this level of horror. At all.

BTW, if anyone's got an image or quote for Grimm Fairy Tales, let's see 'em. I'm more worried about the quote than the image.

Me too

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:41:42 PM

Yeah, I'd have to agree. While I doubt bobg deliberately tried to present the case as being worse by making outlandish claims, but it does sound like it leans too much to Fridge Horror.

This? From the Vapour lord.

Or would it be too gruesome.

Having played the game too, I'm still sticking with my initial . I feel kinda dumb for not bringing this point up sooner, but none of the really bad stuff KH Scar says or does is really focused on at all and a lot of this is fridge. The only stuff he does that matters is his most important movie crimes, attempting to kill the heroes, and then taunting Simba as a bunch of ghosts before turning into another generic Heartless boss. The cannibalism thing? He tells the lionesses to hunt Sora, Donald, and Goofy. Sora just happens to be a lion in this world, but it being cannibalism is never brought up at all.

I also think bobg wasn't being malicious at all in here, but just overstated and put too much emphasis on stuff that doesn't really amount to much.

Edited by finalsurvivor1 on Aug 3rd 2019 at 5:52:00 AM

I agree heartily with that.

As for GFT...

This? or This? If not, this may be a decent quote for Pan.

What is he even doing in that first pic?

I'm assuming that he's sucking a soul of a cow but I could be wrong @miraculous

Devoured the soul of a child there.