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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#130701: Sep 24th 2018 at 2:25:06 AM

[up][up] We voted him down already on that exact charge.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#130702: Sep 24th 2018 at 5:46:23 AM

Yes to all the candidates I missed.

I read yet another Marvel novel from the 2000s and this one is interesting, its pretty grim. Its called Wolverine: Lifeblood and instead of featuring a traditional X-Men villain, features another appearance of everyone's favorite Nazi super villain:

Who is the candidate?

In this story Red Skull....actually its someone who does not show up as much, the villainous Baron Wolfgang von Strucker.

What does he do?

In this story, Baron Strucker is member of the Red Skull (nice reference) SS special projects unit, tasked by Himmler himself to create super humans for the Reich. Strucker creates a crack SS team, made up of the most fit members of the German army and given a cocktail of drugs and herbs that enhance their abilities, but quickly lead to burn out.

Strucker shows off his team, by taking several Russian P.O.Ws and giving them better weapons and a fortified position over his troops and his troops still easily kill the Russians. However Himmler is not impressed by this demonstration. He wanted true super humans, not just enhanced soldiers. To his end, Strucker begins combing the Nazi concentration camps for mutants that he can use in his mission. Strucker finds several mutants, but most of them are not useful (Strucker states he has dissected the ones he finds particularly useless) and also states he has removed embryos from camp inmates to experiment on and then sends the inmates to the crematorium.

Strucker's luck changes when a SS division manages to capture a pre Wolverine Logan in Italy. They declare him a partisan and send him a concentration camp in Poland. Logan is slowly driving the staff the camp mad, with him surviving their various attempts to kill him for defying him. Strucker arrives, releases the drunken half mad commandant of the camp (who was slashing Wolverine with broken wine bottles for hours on end) of his duties. Strucker puts the commandant's assistant in charge of the camp and begins to work on Wolverine. He has Wolverine nailed to a table and begins to dissect him, removing part of his femur, to get at his white blood cells which he believes will make him immortal. However a inmate uprising leads to Wolverine escaping and Strucker fleeing. When Strucker finds out the new commandant was writing a report to try to blame this situation on him, Strucker shoots him dead.

Strucker is able to get enough of Wolverine's blood to make a formula that will keep him young for decades. When Germany is on the brink of losing of the war, Strucker uses his Nazi super soldiers to help him escape Europe, not caring that they burn out and die in the process.

Strucker escapes to the Middle East and ends up joining with a group of jihadist terrorists called the Green Fist, creating new super soldiers for them and staying young due to his formula. Strucker has not changed much, he shows off his new terrorist super soldiers to a client from Yemen, having them kill British and American prisoners they capture and as usual, he gives the other side an advantage, like the British or American prisoners get a knife, but the terrorist has to use his fists, but the new cocktail of drugs and herbs he gives his new troops still makes this unfair fight.

Anyway in this story Wolverine has lost his memory again and is being manipulated by the Weapon X project in modern times. Strucker manages to capture Wolverine again and uses his lack of memory to try to manipulate him. Strucker takes blood samples from Wolverine in order to mass produce his immortality formula and sell it the rich and powerful, as well as make himself permanently immortal (he needed to take the old formula every month to stay young). Strucker tests his new formula on a janitor in his desert base, giving him a healing factor. Satisfied Strucker orders the janitor to be buried alive and for the spot to be marked so Strucker can see if he survives within a couple of weeks.

Anyway Strucker wants to use Wolverine as part of a mission he is doing for his Yemeni client, to assassinate the President of the United States who is visiting a field hospital in Iraq. Strucker's terrorist manage to kill all the guards in a post that would not accept their bribes and they make their way to their Iraqi HQ. There Strucker tries to trick Wolverine into taking a drug that will completely erase his memory to make him a better tool, but Wolverine is no fool, he sees through Strucker, makes the Yemeni terrorists take the drugs instead, leaving him a blank slate. Wolverine ties up Strucker and goes to the hospital to save the President and kill the terrorists. Wolverine returns and threatens Strucker a pretty violent death if he does not help him get his memories back. Strucker begs for his worthless life and gives Wolverine a drug that completely restores his memory, Wolverine decides not to kill Strucker, but will leave him tied up, so the Americans can capture him.

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

I am judging this story on its own, because I do not think there is much continuity in the 2000s era novels, because this story does not jive with other X-Men stories in these novels and Keith De Candido, a writer for one of these novels, said as much.

That being said, despite there being some cruel Nazis and terrorists in this novel, Strucker is the most proactive villain in the story, with the biggest body count of any character and most of the bad stuff that happens in this novel is his fault.

Now this Strucker is more low key then other versions of the character, he does not have the massive attempted body count of his 90s novel counter part, but he has far less resources. He does not have Hydra or any super science weapons at his command, he was a big wig in the Nazi party, but after the war, he has to sell his services to Jihadist terrorists to make his living, but he makes up for this by being gruesome and ghoulish, we may not see the dissection of most of those mutants or the stuff with the embryos directly, but Strucker's program and torture of Wolverine sets a pretty nasty pattern and Strucker's war crimes and Bad Boss impulses are in full display here, so he has that in common with his past versions. More low level, but still pretty nasty.

Strucker is a war criminal and terrorist and even without Hydra is still a nasty customer.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

Yeah right.

He is a total Bad Boss who cares nothing for his own troops and seems to only care about himself, secretly heaping scorn on his Nazi and terrorist pay masters.

He claims he is helping Wolverine, but that is clearly a lie. He tortured Wovlerine, planned to get rid of him as soon as he was no longer useful and only gave Wolverine the drug that would restore his memory after Wolverine threatened him with a violent end.

Final Verdict?

More low key then usual, but I think this version of Strucker counts.

Hey, at least its not another version of Red Skull.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#130704: Sep 24th 2018 at 5:51:50 AM

[tup]Strucker

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#130707: Sep 24th 2018 at 6:26:32 AM

Yes to Strucker.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#130708: Sep 24th 2018 at 6:28:08 AM

Sure on Strucker

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#130710: Sep 24th 2018 at 7:19:48 AM

Oh right so shouldn't we write-up the rule that a character needs to appear even if its a really small appearnace in order to count.

Edited by miraculous on Sep 24th 2018 at 7:24:34 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
erazor0707 The Unknown Unknown from The Infinitude of Meh Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The Unknown Unknown
#130711: Sep 24th 2018 at 7:25:35 AM

[tup] Strucker again.

A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#130712: Sep 24th 2018 at 7:35:38 AM

[tup]Strucker.

Why so serious?
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#130713: Sep 24th 2018 at 7:55:30 AM

[tup] for Baron Wolfgang von Strucker.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#130714: Sep 24th 2018 at 7:55:54 AM

[up][up][up][up] I guess, I think that is just common sense, but if it comes up that often. If it does not come up that often, I do not know if we need a rule

I will say though, a lot of these novels go for the more obscure villains then say always Red Skull (though he shows up a fair amount in the novels). This would only be the 3rd version of Strucker to count and the Robot Master A.I is one of the most obscure Spidey villains around and the novels from the 90s and even the 70s covered some less used villains as monsters: MODOK, Mr. Sinister, Maestro, etc. I am waiting for a novel in the mail, that will cover the last of the 90s era Marvel novel villains (he is not one of the usual suspects either), I do not think after this last candidate from those novels, I doubt there would be anyone left, but there could still be some from the 2000s or modern era Marvel novels.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 24th 2018 at 7:59:54 AM

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#130715: Sep 24th 2018 at 8:39:31 AM

I'm actually kinda surprised Sinister's not used more often.

Anyway, yes to Strucker, with a caveat. It looks like while all those novels might not be connected, some Wolverine ones might be.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#130716: Sep 24th 2018 at 8:59:40 AM

[up] Okay, but do not mention the events of this book in any other, I would be skeptical about how continuity there is between these novels. Because this one really puts Wolverine in a weird place, but it did look like he was going to get revenge on the party that wiped his memory and stuck him in some random condo in Ottawa at the end of Lifeblood. If any book picks up that plot thread, that would show some interconnected universe, but I think Strucker is a good keep regardless, given how personally cruel he is, it would take a lot to out heinous him, especially since he has less resources then usual. It could just be branding thing rather then an actual continuing universe, I would not know.

There are lot of Wolverine solo novels in this series of books, I got Road of Bones, but did a little reading ahead and it seems like the villains in that story have redeeming values and I remember the villains from the Weapon x not being heinous enough. Of those novels, the Nature of the Beast seems like the one most likely to have a keeper, with a villain who wants to commit genocide against mutant kind.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#130719: Sep 24th 2018 at 11:40:46 AM

Just a reminder that Sherlock Holmes will be requested for locking either tomorrow or when they put up this week's batch, whichever is later.

Also, I've created the D & D reformat. At this moment, it's just a new header and caption. Today I also plan to de-pothole/re-pothole the video games and the non-Drizzt literature.

EDIT: Lit's done.

Edited by ACW on Sep 24th 2018 at 3:27:27 PM

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
G-Editor Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#130721: Sep 24th 2018 at 12:53:58 PM

So, I found this on Irenicus's character page:

  • Heel–Face Turn: If you have an addon for Ascension (appropriately titled Redemption), it's possible to turn him against Amellysan and redeem him.

True or not?

Anyway, I've done all the VG ones besides him and Rejiek (the latter could probably be trimmed).

[down]Gotcha.

Edited by ACW on Sep 24th 2018 at 4:11:45 AM

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#130722: Sep 24th 2018 at 1:12:04 PM

It's a fan mod. Baldur's Gate had a very active fan-mod community. Not that Redemption isn't very well written, but it has no bearing on the canon game.

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 24th 2018 at 1:15:50 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Knack Since: Mar, 2018
ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#130725: Sep 24th 2018 at 1:59:36 PM

BTW, Lighty (or anyone else): Does Reljek need to be so long?

  • Rejiek Hidesman is initially introduced as a tanner based out of Athkatla's Bridge District but is actually the Skinner Murderer, a Serial Killer who targets paupers and beggars and kills his victims in cruel and disgusting fashion by skinning them like beasts while they're still alive. When Gorion's Ward confronts him with evidence linking him to two recent killings, he tacitly admits to his crimes and regrets only that he got careless and ended up incriminating himself. As he flees into the lower reaches of his home the party discovers his basement is full of flayed, dead and rotting bodies, including that of the good Lieutenant Aegisfield, whom Rejiek killed to maintain his secret, and a shirt made of Genuine Human Hide. He escapes thanks to the aid of his Necromancer friend, but later appears again in Trademeet after the party go to comfort a young man called Tiris and learn he and his girlfriend Raissa were attacked by a skinless monster and she is now missing, presumed dead; investigation reveals that Rejiek was responsible for her disappearance and has infected himself and her with a virus that turns the victim into a "skinless dancer", a humanoid monster capable of wearing the skin of others to disguise itself. Assuming Raissa's identity and foisting his own upon her, he tries to trick Gorion's Ward into killing her under the pretense of killing him, and when they are not fooled he tries to kill them himself. Even after he fails and is killed, Raissa finds her skin will not fit her and unless the player casts one of two spells on her, she will succumb to the virus and be lost to its monstrous instincts. His own transformation into a skinless dancer represented a final apotheosis of the darkness in Rejiek's soul and his willingness to commit ghoulish, sadistic, horrifying murders.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

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