Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

The 'Edit Requests for Locked Pages' thread should be able to handle that without an unlock.

Ought I to be directed to this thread? Or is it easy to find? I'll go check.

It's linked from Locked Pages.

Kradil/Cradil of Sword Art Online is a bit iffy. I think the main reason he doesn't stand out as much is just because in the whole, he's just not that significant of a character. However, that the people of his former also act similarly isn't really a reason to disqualify him, I believe. At the very least, he's a psycho stalker who'd kill anyone getting in the way. He doesn't have any redeeming features I can recall. I don't really know enough to disqualify him, but someone I know who's read the books would place him as a Complete Monster.

It's an overshadowing issue. A Complete Monster has to stand out for their evil, not just be one in a crowd.

In the anime, all of the Laughing Coffin members act almost identically. The only difference between Cradil and the rest of them is that he has a name. He doesn't get any more characterisation.

I'm not that familiar with the manga/light novel either. Cradil might well get more characterisation there. However, there is a different problem. In the third arc in the manga, we meet Xa Xa and Johnny Black, two former members of the Laughing Coffin who, after making it back into the real world, have discovered that they have an addiction to murder. Together with Xa Xa's brother, Kyoji, they create the identity of Death Gun in another game. One of the trio operates as Death Gun in the virtual world, while the other two track down the person he is currently playing against and break into their house. When Death Gun kills the player's avatar, the accomplice in the real world will then inject the unconcious player with poison, killing them in real life. As the Big Bad Ensemble of an entire arc, these three get a lot more characterisation then Cradil does, and are notably more evil, as they don't possess the innate excuse of being trapped in the game, or the rationalisation that they are "just killing avatars" that a lot of players seem to use.

In short, I think Cradil fails to stand out.

edited 18th Apr '13 2:00:08 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Sorry to bring this up again, but can I cut the Felix the cat example?

Also just wanted to remind you all that there are a few remaining group examples on the film page that were missed.

Also the writeup for Krug, should we add him?

Well, I don't even remember who the other guys were, so Kradil stands out for me. He did have focus on him, which painted him pretty badly. Though mostly I'm not putting forth my own opinion; just someone else's.

edited 18th Apr '13 2:02:20 PM by AnotherDuck

They aren't in the anime (at least not yet). Still, in the anime, Cradil's actions don't extend much beyond trying to kill other players. There's an entire Guild (Laughing Coffin) dedicated to doing that, and more then a few other players that we meet have done the same (most notably the gang that Kirito saves that one little girl from).

Add Krug, and I defer to Ambar for Sword Art Online

Re: Marvel: Looks like we're ready to go, except...

• Cavella and Rawlins need rewrites.
• Carnage's entry is almost entirely devoted to his backstory; we could use some more meat from his supervillainous career.
• Cortez and Rice need the mention of their deaths removed.
• Dormammu needs elaboration, and I don't think we ever settled the "is or isn't he a GDV?" debate.

Found these bad examples on the Inu Yasha Complete Monster page:

•The fake water god also counts, with his entire thing of forcing people to give him their kids for him to eat so he will not destroy their village.

Sounds like a nasty demon, but those actions are likely eclipsed by the vile stuff Naraku does.

•Shiori's bat youkai grandfather, who heartlessly uses and manipulate the little Barrier Maiden for his own purposes and kills his Noble Demon son, aka Shiori's dad, when he questions him on trying to stop doing so.

Manipulating Shiori and killing one good guy who's related to her = Protagonist-Centered Morality and not heinous enough.

•The Ancient Noh Mask, which eats flesh and wants the jewel shards, whose methods include eating police officers and driving a FIRE TRUCK into Kagome's house just to get the jewel.

OK, do I even NEED to explain what's wrong with this one?

•Magatsuhi, the demon sealed within the Shikon no Tama itself. It's evil incarnate and the embodiment of darkness of the Shikon Jewel. Naraku was following this demon's orders.

Made of Evil and wasn't posessing Naraku to do any of the things he did: it was compelling him to be evil, but Naraku's deeds and the outcomes were ultimately his own choice.

edited 18th Apr '13 2:19:33 PM by AnewMan

We actually discussed Inuyasha a long time ago, and everyone not named Naraku was a cut

HT:

We decided Dormammu was a keep. Just needs a rewrite. I'll look at the others later

edited 18th Apr '13 2:28:58 PM by Lightysnake

I do not know how to add Krug to the film page since it's locked, help.

Also shoud we delete the Felix the cat example?

Go to the edit request thread. Septimus said how on this page or last

Here. It's also linked from Locked Pages which is linked from the orange icon.

edited 18th Apr '13 2:35:37 PM by SeptimusHeap

Just a quick question: is it alright to nominate a character from your own fanfiction, or does someone else have to do it for you?

Not seeing a reason why not. Just keep the usual criteria in mind.

I removed Cortez and Rice's deaths from the CM and YMMV. Lighty or someone else can handle the rest. I propose just adding to Carnage's, to show that even as a human he was a CM.

@11720: Agree with keeping Suguo and cutting Kradil for being overshadowed in the anime.

@11738: Yes delete the Felix the Cat example.

For Monster.Inuyasha, since we decided a long time ago that nobody but Naraku counts, and he's been added to Monster.Anime And Manga, I'll request the monster subpage for Inuyasha be Cut List in a day.

Reading over the Monster.Literature page, there are a few examples I'd like to contest:

• Berne from The Acts Of Caine: Needs a more fleshed-out entry but probably a keeper. Until someone can provide something more than a stub though, thinking cut.
• Captain Carol Mason from Agent Pendergast: It says her inhibitions are removed, that implies impaired moral agency. Cut.
• Howard DeVore from Chung Kuo: On-the-fence. If it’s a big multidimensional alien, how's it's reasoning in comparison to a human's?
• Valeris from Conan The Barbarian: On-the-fence. Kind of sounds like a generic Evil Overlord.
• Celine Reinshafen from Council Wars: Her entry is a stub and says next to none of her deeds. Expand or cut.
• Uber-Espers progenitor from Deathstalker: Apparently in life this person was so evil that when she died and her spirit broke apart into four parts, each became an Eldritch Abomination which attacked humanity. My question, are these parts of her spirit literal "beyond our comprehension" kind of Eldritch Abominations, or are they a Nyarlathotep "understands about traditional morality but doesn’t care" kind of Eldritch Abomination? Are the parts of her spirit even doing these crimes consciously, or is her evil nature corrupting people?
• Ka Anor from Everworld: His entry's a stub and it doesn't make him sound as bad as Hel. Expand or cut.
• Friday The Thirteenth books: Reading over the entries the series sounds like one of those filled with such darkness and such unsympathetic characters that it's nearly impossible to find someone who counts.
  • Father Eric Long: From what’s listed he doesn’t sound like kills anyone himself, he just lets Jason do his thing then rationalizes it with his dogma. The only thing he personally does is the slimeball move of seducing his soldiers widows, other than that he just sounds like an enabler of crimes instead of a perpetrator. Cut.
  • Wayne Ricardo Sanchez: Would need to know just how much more prominent he is than the other hell escapees. From the sounds of the book’s tone, his crimes are common, it’s just that he gets the most screen time. Cut.
  • Penelope and Norwood Thawn: They sound standard for the series and about as bad as Sanchez.
  • Caleb Carson: The only possible keep since his schemes can actually result in global destruction. He's apparently willing to allow a Zombie Apocalypse so he can keep his TV show going.
  • Contestants on Caleb's show: Cut. Entry admits they don't get enough characterization.
  • Nathaniel Morgas: Again, sounds common for the book standards. Actually he doesn't sound that bad when compared with other examples. Cut.
  • Grissom Brothers: Again, they don't sound special for the series. Cut.
• Penny from Gone: Cut. There are a few reasons for this. For one she fails the heinous standard when compared not just to Drake Merwin (tries to feed toddlers to coyotes, threatens to detonate the nuclear plant if the protagonist doesn’t let Drake whip him to death, tries to kill all of the toddlers in the FAYZ to break the remaining kids’ spirits, assists the Gaiaphage in its attempts to kill everyone in the FAYZ, and has fantasties about torturing, and possibly raping, Astrid and Diana to death, and does all of this with the utmost sadism and jubilation), but also when compared with the Gaiaphage (attempts to exterminate everyone in the FAYZ, wants to eat most of the people on the planet then turn the rest into terrified servants) or even Big Bad Wannabe Zil (wants to commit genocide against super-powered kids). Compared to that traumatizing one kid, torturing another into insanity, and causing the pregnant Diana to hallucinate disturbing images isn’t enough.
  • Furthermore her moral agency seems to be heavily impaired since, following Plague, she seems to have descended into full-blown insanity after she spent weeks in agony with her legs broken and was given no medical treatment. Her plans to usurp Caine as king in the FAYZ and then to serve the Gaiaphage all seem to indicate her having completely lost touch with reality. Also, despite her sadism, it’s hard not to feel some pity for her for both her previous crippling and for the hints that she wants someone to be loved in some capacity. First she wants Caine to love her, but when he still has feelings for Diana, she begins using her powers of hallucination to make other boys see her as Diana (they all know it’s really Penny) to get affection from them. She even goes so far as to team up with Drake just because he lies and says she’s pretty.
• Ma'ar/Mornelithe Falconsbane from Heralds Of Valdemar: The entry says he was a Well-Intentioned Extremist but never gives any proof that he stopped being one. Cut unless someone can prove he's not a WIE.
• Kenzi And Gennaro Series:
  • Marion Socia: Stub. Expand or cut.
  • Leon and Roberta Trent and Corwin Earll: Another stub. Expand or cut.
  • Scott Pearce: Thinking cut. Just being a murderer, he doesn't sound as bad as Marion Socia (crimelord who pimps his son) or Leon and Roberta Trent and Corwin Earll (all child molesters and murderers).
• Master Bush and Master Blair from The Thin Executioner: As murderers and conmen, they sound like they fail the heinous standard when compared to Qasr Bint, who is a cannibal, murderer, and forces people to commit self mutilation until they die. Cut those two.
• Aaron of Moor from Titus Andronicus: The entry actually says nothing he's done throughout the play and then says everyone in that play is a monster. Can someone elaborate or should he be cut?
• Elethiomel Zakalwe from Use Of Weapons: I'm confused about this entry. It sounds like someone either assumes his identity or the real Zakalwe feels remorse for his deeds which would mean he should be cut.
• Helen Tielle from The Vampire Files: If she's posthumous it sounds like her deeds are Offscreen Villainy. If so, cut.
• Jaffur the Ifrit from Wandering Djinn: Apparently he's subservient to another (who sounds worse), attempts to kill someone close to the protagonist (which is Protagonist-Centered Morality) and the rest he's done is speculation/inferred. Cut.
• The Weaver from Winds of the Forelands: It's a stub entry. Expand or cut.
• Vilgefortz from The Witcher: Stub. Expand or cut.
• TECT from The Wolves Of Memory: Apparently it's an AI that mocks and lies to the hero to make his life of hardwork and memory loss more painful. Doesn't sound like it meets a base level of heinousness and I question it's moral agency for being an AI. Thinking cut.
• Jennet Humfrye from The Woman In Black: No. She still loves her son, and she may get a Pet the Dog moment in allowing the main character and his son to pass on to the afterlife instead of holding on to their souls. Cut.

edited 18th Apr '13 4:45:19 PM by OccasionalExister

Berne is a keeper. Rapist, murderer, blood knight and torturer.

De Vore...I lean towards keep there. Just being an alien doesn't mean he lacks agency.

Valerius...keeping in mind when this was written, generic evil overlords weren't generic at all.

Ka Anor: expand.

Keep Caleb Carson, cut the other Friday 13th examples

Ma'ar...reading the tropes page indicates he goes through motive decay and loses the WIE stuff later oon.

Honestly? Aaron the Moore fails the heinous standard and he's even the LEAST evil as he actually loves his own child! Cut!

Helen Tielle...does she appear in flashbacks?

Vilgefortz...expand. He's a keeper

TECT...need to see more, depends on the AI. AM and SHODAN were both keepers, after all.

Jennet...yeah, cut for love of her son

I think somebody did post a description of Berne at one point, but it just got lost in the shuffle. Going to agree to cut pretty much all of those for the reasons listed.

Ka Anor is the only one that I would really like to keep. He's offscreen for most of the book, but his one appearance involves eating another god alive, stripping him down to the bone until there is nothing left. It's an absolutely nauseating scene, and it really helps to sell the notion that Ka Anor is every bit as bad as we've been told.

At the same time though, I have to admit that Hel's around a lot more, quite easily has the worst list of onscreen deeds. Unless we count people killed by his army, one could argue that Senna (the frequently leather pantsed witch of the series) has more onscreen villainy, in fact (she's effectively Hel-lite at times). I think I'll have to support cutting Ka Anor, much as I would prefer not to.

edited 18th Apr '13 4:31:30 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

The problem there, though...Ka Anor directly controls and directs the Hetwan. Everything they do is imputed back to him

Then we can get him on what his army does. Excellent. Not real sorry about that.

Speaking of literature, the subpage for Stephen King is bad. Jim Rennie's entry is entirely spoilered. And there's more then a few Zero Context Examples.

• Randall Flagg from The Stand, of course. He has a history of inspiring some of the world's worst people, raping and murdering for generations before the events of the book even start.
  • And he is strongly implied to be The Devil!

No context. I have no doubt Flagg qualifies, but a rewrite is needed. Also, another example of somebody who thinks being Satan is a qualifier. Which given that we cut Satan, it is not. As a sidenote, I've seen Flagg listed on wikipedia as an avatar of Nyarlathotep. Anybody else know if that's what King intended?

• Reverend Sunlight Gardener in The Talisman. Brainwashing children is probably the least despicable thing he does.
  • "Can ya gimme Hallelujah?"

This tells me nothing.

• Hitler Brothers, fascist scumbags who torture Father Callahan's friend, Lupe Delgado, and later assault Callahan for being a 'nigger-lover'.

This was under the Dark Tower, right below Jack Mort (who does sound like a keeper). These guys might count, but it needs a rewrite.

• From the Different Seasons novellas:
  • "Rita Hayworth And Shawshank Redemption" — The Sisters. Evil for the love of power.
  • "Apt Pupil" — Dussander and Todd, both of whom choose evil because it is evil.

Again, rewrites needed.

Wild Bill's entry is also almost entirely spoilered out.

edited 18th Apr '13 5:59:44 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Flagg's backstory is given in the Dark Tower...he's a human wizard who made a deal with the devil

I guess this weekend I'll go through the Marvel examples and tighten up the grammar and such; hopefully we can get it locked sometime then or early next week.