Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Prison Break: Don't know jf Christine counts, but she needs more detail if she does. On the CM page it's just "what a bitch."

Being completely unfamiliar with the show, that sounds like one of those misogynist entries to me...

My recommendation? Cut. If someone want to explain her, come here and do it.

From what little I remember, Christina was damn evil, with her role in conspiracies and trying to kill her sons

@11090: I stopped watching at the end of the second season so I have no way of answering your questions sorry.

@32 Footsteps: Ted and Bill movie: Cut. No questions about that.

@Ambar Sonof Deshar: I think Nicholai could count then.

Any news on Bones and CSI?

@Hamburger Time, I'm winking at you ! Would you do the write up for the Big Bad you mentioned that you wanna keep? Otherwise I think I support your ideas for cutting/keeping. Anyone who wants to comment, see post 10945, page 438.

RE: 11082 about YMMV.Gossip Girl. I'd actually cut all four if nobody explains why they should stay. Don't know the show myself and can't say. Two have awful crimes on their hands, but there is no proof they fit all criteria.

RE: Bones at Monster.Live Action TV: I'll post a request to have Gormogon removed. That one was ruled out (insane, well-intentioned). The other two can stay, but someone should argue for them in the future.

RE: Prison Break: Agree with Lighty that Cristina should be cut but can be discussed in the future.

edited 5th Apr '13 10:03:11 AM by XFllo

@Hodor: Sebastian's characterization differs between the anime and the manga. The anime does seem to portray him as a Noble Demon, particularly in the first season. (The second season cuts into that a bit with some clear implications that Sebastian only cares for Ciel because he's expected to turn into such a fine meal.) The manga, on the other hand, makes it pretty clear that he views all humans as weak and boring and beneath him, and only obeys and looks out for Ciel because it's part of the contract for Ciel's soul.

That was my argument in a nutshell.

edited 5th Apr '13 10:27:00 AM by Nocturna

I'm not sure how one can view Sebastian as a CM, quite frankly...

Laura Gabriel is who you're referring to, yes? She's an interesting one as until the very last episode of the arc we think the Big Bad is her husband, a weapons mogul, and in fact the investigation opens because many of his company's weapons are found in the hands of mobsters and drug dealers. We're led to believe Laura is in danger from her husband because she knows too much, and indeed her lawyer and his staff are all murdered by employees of the company. It's eventually revealed that she hired them, and then she herself kills the assassins and burns their bodies beyond recognition to fake her and her Dragon's deaths. She's a teenage friend of Catherine's (one of the main characters) and her intent with all of this was to goad Catherine into summarily executing her husband, leaving her in control of his fortune. She then planned to have Catherine killed as well, showing that she cares nothing for her old friend.

edited 5th Apr '13 10:26:04 AM by HamburgerTime

Lightysnake, and you've been in this thread how long...?

Going to say cut Bossk, cut Sebastian, cut Ciel. Oh and the guy from Bill & Ted, cut, then smack the person who added it over the head with a two by four. Yeesh.

@Hamburger Time: sounds like a contender

Could use some votes on the rewrite for Berg that I posted here.

Also, so far I only have Sophia Lonesoul and X Fllo's opinions on Nicholai. I've got enough votes to put up DC!Alexia, and have put her onto the YMMV page for Darkside Chronicles. That said, I'd like to settle the issue of Nicholai so I can request all changes to the videogame subpage be made at once. Personally, I'm leaning towards keeping him (though that example obviously needs a rewrite). Wesker and Alexia might hurt more people, but that's a matter of power, not will, and Nicholai's willingness to kill off his own teammates in order to make a profit is pretty vile. That said, it's been years since I've played RE 3 so more opinions would be appreciated.

edited 5th Apr '13 11:04:23 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'll keep Nicholai.

Can we also make edits to Cold Case now? Those got lost and I want to have that show done with.

I want to propose one final Highlander villain as well, Morgan Walker.

Walker is an Immortal who's unique from the others in monstrosity in that he's a slaver. He's been a slaver for centuries, since before he became Immortal in 1671. In 1808, he was a home owner in New Orleans and had left on a trip. While he was gone, another Immortal, a doctor named Benjamin Adams, (real name, Methos) had an affair with his favorite slave. When he got back, Walker flew into a jealous rage and despite having no real proof anything had happened, he murdered said slave. Adams escaped Walker who came for his head.

Now, I should note that Walker claims to have loved the slave, Charlotte, but the episode makes it very clear she's nothing but a possession he owns and the second she stepped out of line, he killed her. He doesn't regret it, either. What makes Walker real bad is the present. He runs a white slaving ring where he kidnaps young women and sells them into sex slavery. When he recognizes Methos, he kidnaps the daughter of Methos's friend, fully intending to kill or sell her if said friend, Joe Dawson, doesn't hand over Methos for Morgan to behead.

The villains of Highlander are pretty varied...Kern is the animalistic killer, Kalas is the evil mastermind, Daimler is the Nazi, Kronos is the Omnicidal Maniac...I think a slaver like this is unique enough to join them. I should also note that while slavery was normal in Walker's time, most immortals genuinely change and adapt to the times. Walker simply sticks with it because he enjoys it

edited 5th Apr '13 11:42:43 AM by Lightysnake

• RE: CSI:
• Laura Gabriel is a keeper to me.
• I definitely vote for the sick couple who force husbands kill their wives.
• Collins the father: Could be a candidate, actually. More context please?
• Frank Mc Carty: How much of this is onscreen? (Occasional Exister asked and it has a point)
• Dimasa: Agree with Occasional Exister. Keep unless someone has good reasons on why he doesn't qualify.
• Mc Keen: Cut for genuine love.

• "Fannysmackers": How do we stand on them? As a group they're out, but there were voices here to keep the leader who was barely onscreen but the violence seems pretty extreme. I'd probably be fine with listing the leader.

EDIT: shoboni brought up this examples from Monster.Live Action TV and I agree it should be cut.

• Shane Casey borderlines this on CSI: NY, primarily after realizing his brother was actually guilty and starting to torment Danny and Lindsay.

Happy to discuss Cold Case. Though yet another show I don't watch, I only saw about five episodes. Was here any discussion already? If yes, could anyone point me to the page? Or is it new and I should just read the examples on Monster.Live Action TV and provide my take on it?

RE: Highlander. The slave owner has my vote.

Three votes in his favour are OK, if he has no votes against him. Did he get any no's?

edited 5th Apr '13 1:13:21 PM by XFllo

I can see that being a qualifier.

Thought I'd provide a possible write-up for Nicholai. We still need a few more votes on him, but I figure having a clearer write-up can't hurt.

• Nicholai Zinoviev from Resident Evil 3 Nemesis and Operation Raccoon City is an oddity in the franchise. He's not a Mad Scientist or a megalomaniac, and he lacks the god complex that defines so many of the series' villains. A cold-blooded ex-soldier, Nicholai joined the Umbrella Biohazard Countermeasures Service as a sergeant. Instructed to collect combat data on the bioweapons running amok on the city, Nicholai arranges for the deaths of his teammates so that only he will be able to report back to headquarters and collect the bounty. He blows up the city's hospital and university, shoots Greg Mueller and fellow U.B.C.S. member Tyrell Patrick, sends zombie suicide bombers after the Wolfpack squad, and feeds several people to zombies as a way of gathering research data. In doing so, he proves that a Sociopathic Soldier like himself can be every bit as bad as the most evil Evilutionary Biologist.

edited 5th Apr '13 1:02:41 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Mc Keen: Love...for his son?

Shane Casey? Why cut?

re: McCarty: I actually answered this; it's onscreen, but only in a dream sequence of someone who didn't actually witness the crime. Does that count?

re: Cold Case: My votes were as follows:

• Smith: Keep.
• Larkin: Keep.
• Marks: Cut, Freudian Excuse.
• Mulvaney: Keep.
• Delaney: Cut, Offscreen Villainy. I absolutely hate having to do this, though, as he's acknowledged as a CM in-universe, and as the worst Asshole Victim on the show.
• Bayes: Cut, not heinous enough.
• Williams: Cut, mentally ill.
• Kimball: Cut, cries as she leaves her husband to die (though she still does it).
• Nelson: Cut, mentally ill.
• "Slipping" killer (Dan Patterson is his name): Keep.
• Kitchener: Cut, just an accomplice. Easily the nastiest one on the show, but he's still not the actual killer.
• Freely: Keep.
• Becca and Jane: Cut both; they're basically the same character and neither of them is heinous enough.

edited 5th Apr '13 1:51:54 PM by HamburgerTime

Seeing as they could be wrong, I am inclined to say no on Mc Carty.

edited 5th Apr '13 2:17:24 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I jumped the gun. Akakios added.

McCarty and dream sequence. I'd say it's insufficient, especially if other crimes in that show are shown. Therefore cut.

Casey of CSI:NY: Cut, basically because it's Zero Context Example that doesn't say anything about his crimes or his level of evil. And it says he borderlines on a CM. We don't want borderline, though, it could be just a Word Cruft.

edited 5th Apr '13 3:23:05 PM by XFllo

OK, my thoughts on Cold Case, judging from the current examples. I'm undecided on a few.

• John Smith. Keeper. Good write-up, too, only minor stuff with punctuation.
• Jim Larkin: Keeper. Writing ok.
• George Marks: Cut. Horrible mother could be an excuse.
• Roger Mulverny: Keeper, probably. More context would help.
• Mike Delaney: Undecided. Could pass, but more context. Re-write would be a must if we keep him.
• Charlotte Bayes from "Churchgoing People": No.
• Lauren Williams from "Blackout": Keeper. Horrible child abuse in the family... Probably yes.
• Johanna Kimball: Cut, I think. Horrible crimes, but do they stand out?
• Wayne Nelson from "Death Penalty Final Appeal": Cut. Nothing super-heinous.
• Murderer from "Slipping": Probably cut.
• Major Moe Kitchener: Cut. Nothing super-heinous.
• Josh Freely from "Fly Away": Keeper. If it's on-screen (gory discretion), definitely.
• Jane from "Love Conquers Al": No.
• Becca Abrams from "Stand Up and Holler": No.

From YMMV.Cold Case:

• Truitt in "Spiders" also qualifies. He's a neo-Nazi, an abusive boyfriend, a murderer, and an all-around Smug Snake who wholeheartedly believes he's the good guy through all of it. And his mother may be even worse.
  • While Truitt is scum, it is implied that he did genuinely love Tamyra; he's an asshole, but he just narrowly avoids complete monster. His mom has no such redeeming qualities.

• Truitt is to be cut, then.
• Truitt's mother would need an attorney to defend her status of a Complete Monster.

EDIT: Reading Hamburger Time's comments, I agree with those:

• Williams: Cut, mentally ill.
• Kimball: Cut, cries as she leaves her husband to die (though she still does it). Redeeming.
• Nelson: Cut, mentally ill.
• Delaney: Cut, off-screen.

edited 5th Apr '13 4:10:22 PM by XFllo

Freely is interesting in that none of the actual rape is onscreen, but the emotional abuse of the parents and the utterly disgusting lengths to which he abuses his authority are. Combined with what we know he does to kids, I'm voting yes on him.

Truitt's mom, Rayanne, is quite possibly the most terrifying person ever seen on the show. She's basically a non-fantastic Umbridge, and at one point she gives a little speech about how Hispanic people are "vermin" who deserve to be wiped out by "spiders," like her son, before they take all "our" jobs and rape all "our" women. She's also the mastermind of the episode's main murder, though she doesn't pull the trigger herself.

edited 5th Apr '13 3:21:24 PM by HamburgerTime

@11076: Good rewrite for Berg.

@11082: Cut all the Gossip Girl examples. Thorpe and Bass, I think at least, can be argued by someone more familiar with the show, but the entries are too weak for now.

@11085: Cut all Black Butler examples except for Angela and Ash.

@11086: I cut Ricardio since we talked about him a while ago and decided he doesn't count.

@11098: I'll vote cut on Chuck De Nomolos from Bill And Teds Bogus Journey.

@11100: Agree with cutting all those Prison Break examples. Bagwell and Self just plain don't sound like they count. If someone's cut an argument for Christina I'll hear it, but until then cut.

@11111: I'll also give a yes vote to Walker.

@11113: Very good entry, I'll give a yes vote to Nicholai.

Re CSI Crime Scene Investigation: Given that it's the dream sequence of someone who wasn't there, I'll vote cut on McCarty. However, I'd like to change my vote into a keep for Laura Gabriel due to Hamburger's post @11108. She sounds more proactive and murderous than I first suspected.

Also, does anyone have an opinion on the Chuck examples I brought up here?

edited 5th Apr '13 3:19:17 PM by OccasionalExister

Re: Chuck: Very good reasons to cut them all. Unless someone challenges that, I vote to cut.

Re: Cold Case: Truitt's mum sounds like a serious candidate. EDIT: On the other hand, if she doesn't commit the deed herself, that might disqualify her. [I must re-read the rules.]

YMMV.Gossip Girl: I deleted all entries and left a note at discussion page that two examples could be brought up, but with serious arguments.

edited 5th Apr '13 4:08:40 PM by XFllo

Laura Gabriel, I vote Magnificent Bitch she may be. Or just Manipulative Bitch.

edited 5th Apr '13 3:34:40 PM by ACW

If Truitt's mother masterminded it and got someone else to pull the trigger, that isn't a mark against her.

I mirror Hamburger Time's votes on all the examples from Cold Case.

The actual killer is basically her puppet, and she pretty much piles emotional abuse on him until he does it, so yeah, I don't think that should disqualify her.

And before anyone says "Does she love her son?", when they're both being booked at the end of the episode, they pass each on the way to lockup and her expression is not one of concern but rather You Have Failed Me.

edited 5th Apr '13 4:13:30 PM by HamburgerTime