During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
EDIT: Having re-read the effort-post I'm going to give Dark Samus a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
. The Metroid thing is the one strike against her but it's offscreen and in one log.
Dark Samus IS sentient by Metroid Prime 2, and while she laughs a lot she's more Ax-Crazy and sadistic than literally mentally incompetent or insane. Metroid Prime 3 meanwhile has her become a galactic conqueror with a few clever plans, so I think she's mentally intact enough to qualify.
edited 7th Jan '17 11:42:13 AM by CyberXIII
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well, wait. If we don't count Offscreen Villainy (unless a pattern's been shown, like for a Serial Killer), then shouldn't we do the same for offscreen disqualifiers?
edited 7th Jan '17 11:42:50 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Dark Samus
The Unknown Unknown
I'll abstain on Dark Samus. While I've thought about proposing her, I thought against it because I think she (it?) has moral agency issue because of the Phazon.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Gonna abstain until someone else who's played the games chimes in since I'm not entirely sold on Dark Samus having moral agency.
The games don't elaborate on her moral agency with Phazon. I was contemplating whether or not she counted for a long time, but decided that she did since she was in a way Eviler than Thou to Phazon itself (Phazon is a non-sentient parasite while Dark Samus is a mastermind that hijacks Phazon itself).
edited 7th Jan '17 12:31:22 PM by SatoshiBakura
Played the Prime trilogy a while ago...gonna give a yea after the EP. I don't think there's much issue by way of agency.
She initially has an instinctive desire to hunt for Phazon, but demonstrates grandiose planning well beyond that.
edited 7th Jan '17 1:14:46 PM by Lightysnake
Eh, I suppose I'll give a yeah to Dark Samus then. I guess I was just thrown off by the whole "originated as a Phazon-mutated Metroid" thing. Seems to me like she's the "Mindless evil creature who gains sentience, and uses said sentience to choose to do awful things of her own accord" flavor of Complete Monster.
edited 7th Jan '17 1:16:55 PM by FriedWarthog
A bit conflicted as well. It's been a while since I played those games and I don't remember DS showing more personality than laughing at Samus.
Dark Samus
A few questions first, and then a proposal to re-add someone to Fanworks.
1) If Ganondorf has been discussed this many times, doesn't anyone think he should hit the Never Again list at this point?
2) There was this Lucky Star darkfic called Cries Unheard, about the hell a few yakuza boys raise upon the canon characters. Had the fic gone through, they more than likely would have qualified at least for discussion. However, the fic itself stopped dead in its tracks midway, and was eventually deleted altogether. Would they still qualify based on what they had done already?
And, without further ado...
Who is he and what does he do?
Raker the Jackal, from this Sonic the Hedgehog ficseries. First appears in Caves of the Ancients, before which he sold Tails out to a slave mine, and before then, killed his father, leading to his mother's suicide by drowning, and has been abusing his brother Bait (at least that's what he renamed him) ever since. While Sonic, Knuckles, and Bait head to the Scrap Brain Zone to save Tails, Raker stalks them the whole way, and blows up the Oil Ocean Zone during one of their confrontations. When Sonic calls him out on this the next day, his response is to casually say he didn't stop to think things through. In the next fic Sins of the Mothers, he teams up with Knuckles' thought-to-be-dead mother and Dr. Robotnik, in hopes of getting Bait back, just so that he could torture and kill him (as it's revealed after he retrieves him). Getting him back also involved blowing up a building with Vector inside. Robotnik finds his actions just as appalling as everyone else. Bait is the only one who has any respect for him, because of "family loyalty", even though Sonic tries to get through to him that Raker does not return this.
How seriously is he played?
It speaks volumes when even Robotnik, who went as far as to torture Sonic into a bitter husk of himself, and Sekko, who runs the aforementioned slave mine and ordered Knuckles' lost sister dead before being killed himself by the person he asked to carry it out, cannot hope to compete with him. Robotnik himself expresses revulsion over the way he wants his brother to die. Let's also keep in mind that, unlike Robotnik and Sekko, the most power he had was over a gang that doesn't take very long to disband after his first encounter with Sonic and Knuckles; the damage he does is pretty high for his capabilities.
Does he have a Freudian Excuse?
No. His father might have screwed him up, but we never learn how, and the worst thing Bait does (onpage, anyway) is one instance of petty theft (probably what he knew how to do from within his gang), going as far as to fear a beating from Sonic and Knuckles when they reprimand him and march him back to where he pulled it off.
Does he show any regrets or remorse?
Let it say something when his response to Sonic when he calls him out for his destruction of Oil Ocean ends with "My bad."
Any redeeming qualities?
None.
Final verdict
Big Brother Bully, no control over his impulses, eventually fratricidal, willing to hold an entire zone hostage, and derives revulsion from everyone he interacts with except Bait (and we can chalk him up to Stockholm Syndrome).
Okay, I should ask you right now: did you read this section from the FAQ?
There needs to be a believable reason why a canon character would suddenly turn monstrous. The setting must be conducive to having a Complete Monster. Care Bears is right out. One way of determining this is whether the official work has any approved candidates.
Edit: Actually, now that I look at it, that emphasizes "portraying canon characters". We might want to revise it to cover darkfics in general.
edited 7th Jan '17 1:53:33 PM by nrjxll
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Eigermann for failing the heinousness standard
to Dark Samus.
Also should Dark Samus and Metroid Prime be considered the same entity, since it was evolved from the remains of Metroid Prime.
edited 7th Jan '17 1:57:15 PM by xie323
Cute little Slice of Life series with This
◊ as its page image...
No, not going to consider darkfic from that.
Look, I admit I don't know much of Sonic canon guys, but I see we have a number of Sonic monsters...how far into the territory we won't even consider is this?
edited 7th Jan '17 1:55:32 PM by Lightysnake
Rader
Regarding Dark Fic, we don't discuss fics of works that can't have C Ms on their own.
I have a concern about "A Little Piece of Heaven": Is the narrator really heinous enough? His girlfriend is his co-partner in the Zombie Apocalypse part. Does what he did to her before she zombified him raise him above her?
It's more a taste thing. "reimagine this story as a dark fantasy" would be fine.
"Lucky Star darkfic where there's murderous Yakuza" I'm putting my foot down on with general principle. Any, and I mean any attempts to propose darkfic better have a bit in the effortpost on "how is this story written" to justify it.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
X5: Actually, look at the second part:
I think we can add Ganondorf (though now I kinda wanna play Skyward Sword to see if Demise himself counts):
- The Legend of Zelda
- Ganon(dorf): Lacks moral agency, as The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword showed that he is an instrument of Demise's vengeance.
Dark Samus: May be the most effective villain, but that doesn't mean she's necessarily the worst. How many deaths does she cause as opposed to other villains (successful or not)?
edited 8th Jan '17 4:16:11 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Demise doesn't count. He appears only at the end and even displays some honor
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, that settles that. And I'd replace Demise with Ghirahim, but isn't Ghirahim, like, Demise's sword or something weird?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Discussed before.
I brought up the guy from "A Little Piece of Heaven" before because he seems to show remorse for what he did to his girlfriend, even it he's still crazy:
"Now that it's done I realize the error of my ways
I must venture back to apologize from somewhere far beyond the grave
I gotta make up for what I've done"
And later:
"I will suffer for so long
To make it up to you
I'll do whatever you want me to do"
That seems like it should disqualify him to me. Even if he goes on to start the apocalypse, he still marries his girlfriend after she comes back and punishes him.
edited 7th Jan '17 2:12:01 PM by Camberf
In terms of named characters, she is responsible for three onscreen deaths (two of them she kills directly, one is a bit of a Mind Screw what happened, but she drains the body anyway). All three of them are major characters. In other deaths, she kills a crapton of Space Pirates in multiple cases, an entire Galactic Federation Ship, and whoever was killed by the Leviathan impacts (they are meteors after all). The deaths caused by those under her control are also there.
edited 7th Jan '17 2:12:06 PM by SatoshiBakura
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Alright, I'll give a Dark Samus.
I searched for Ghirahim, and couldn't really find a clear resolution (this site REALLY needs a "search by date" feature).
"how is this story written" to justify it.
You mean, believably, as opposed to just fudged in, right?
For one thing, things like kidnappings and sexual slavery are talked about every now and then. Even though they're kept offscreen and away from named characters, the setting itself is still realistic (albeit focused on the lighter side of everyday life), and things like that still happen in-universe. So, there's that at least.
I thought Dark Samus, while having gained sentient intelligence and awareness, still had moral agency issues due to being part of the Metroid Prime? Or am I misremembering?
edited 7th Jan '17 11:35:28 AM by ANewMan