Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

@ Scar: I believe he's a case of "Freudian Excuse not cutting it". Sure you can get why he's a bitter, envious and wants to be king, but how far he goes in it prevents it from making him sympathetic. Also, it's from a semi-canonical force-in full canon we don't get anything direct about his childhood

I don't know if it has been brought up before, so don't hate me for this. But in the Wolf Creek tv series does Mick Taylor hold a Tragic Keepsake of her sister and/or her mother's ? Does he pay homage to their memory or something ?

I was only able to watch a half-hour of Grave of the Vampire tonight, so I'm postponing any proposal till tomorrow.

Bernard. Ravok, you know what to do.

to Bernard Phillips.

Honestly it sounds a pretty interesting film, I may have to look it up.

I think I'll vote for Bernard, but yes I remember that movie getting very confusing in the second half. I'll pass on Deathwing - I know that sometimes Old God corruption is pictured as almost mind control as nrjxll said but I'm not sure it's the case for him.

Here's a write up for Bernard; it was somewhat hard to write given the nature of this film.

• God Told Me To: Bernard Phillips is an alien/human hybrid conceived when his birth mother was artificially inseminated whilst she was walking on the beach. Possessing telepathic abilities, Bernard sought to create a species of hybrid beings to replace humanity. To accomplish this, Bernard establishes a cult around himself wherein he brainwashes ordinary men into becoming his Apostles. Through his power of persuasion, the Apostles massacre several innocents via spree killings; with each murder, they accredit it to being his will. One instance of this is when a father is manipulated into killing his entire family, children included. Bernard becomes interested in NYPD detective, Peter Nicholas, upon sensing that he was also of extraterrestrial origin. He orders his followers to indoctrinate Nicholas into their cult so that he could breed with him. When Nicholas confronts him, he tries to coerce Nicholas into flinging himself into a furnace when he questioned his power. He also mocks Nicholas by telling him that his unborn children would've inherited his abilities had he not have willed them to die. Genocidal, and apathetic to even his own followers, Bernard valued nothing less than the total destruction of mankind and godhood.

How's this?

edited 3rd Dec '16 7:51:19 AM by AustinDR

Bernard btw

A note on that: Please use the character's full name the first time, then either use his first or his last name consistently the rest of the time. Swapping back and forth, sometimes calling him "Bernard" and sometimes "Phillips" and doing the same thing for Peter Nicholas (sometimes "Peter" and sometimes "Nicholas") is difficult for the reader to follow. The more characters you mention, the more consistency in what you call them is important.

edited 3rd Dec '16 7:54:34 AM by Madrugada

I don't see how it's inconsistent, but sure.

You're making your reader remember two names (or more, sometimes) for each character when they're reading dense blocks of text and it's important that they know who did what to whom. It makes the reading more difficult than it has to be, for no good reason.

OK; I appreciate the input.

Angel, Satan and the Betrayer are all solid . I've got a question, Lusamine apparently doesn't count, but what about Nihilego? I'm still fairly early in the game so I haven't seen either of the in action yet. Anyway I'm proposing Machinedramon. I notice he was discussed previously and never got a proper effort post, so here it is.

Who is he? Machinedramon is one of the Dark Masters.

'What has he done? For starters he lends his forces to the massacre of the Digital guardians. We later see in a flashback that he destroyed the Geckomon kingdom, leaving only 3 survivors, and he really starts to get nasty when the kids enter his section of Spiral Mountain. For starters he levels the whole city trying to kill them, including his entire army after the dangerously sick Kari. Next episode we discover he's enslaved hundreds of Numemon, followed by either killing Warumonzaemon or blowing his arm off depending on whether you're going with the original or the dub, expressing desire to kill Kari as painfully as he can (Dub only), and wipes the Numemon out when they try to stop him.

Additionally the Wanderswan games reveal that he survives his apparent destruction and DNA digivolves with Kimeramon to become Milleniummon. In this form he warps digiworld and even splits it in half, as well as turning Tai and Agumon to stone. Ken and Ryo manage to destroy him but some of his data turns into Dark spores, one of which infects Ken and, together with being manipulated by Myotismon, leads him to become the Digimon Emperor. he eventually comes back again as Moon=Millenniummon and blasts Ryo back to Digiworld's ancient past while he travels to an alternate Digiworld. In the past Ryo meets a new digimon partner called Monodramon, as well asdiscovering there are multiple Digiworlds, and Moon=Millenniummon wants control over all of them.

He and Monodramon manage to travel to the alternate digiworld to face Moon=Millenniummon's most powerful and dangerous form yet, Zeed Milleniummon. In this form he's destroyed almost everything in his new world and turned it into a Crapsack World with himself as its absolute ruler. In the end Monodramon has to force a DNA digivolution between himself and Zeed Milleniummon. which forms Cyberdramon.

Redeeming qualities or Freudian Excuse ? None whatsoever. Notably two of the other Dark Masters do have them (Metalseadramon is a decent boss and Puppetmon's at least partially sympathetic) None of this applies to Machinedramon.

Heinous standard This seems to be the only reason he isn't universally approved, because Myotismon and Piedmon have more under their belt, but Piedmon is far more powerful than him, likewise for Myotismon's mega forms, and the Wanderswan games knock this argument flat on its face.

The Final verdict An easy for me.

edited 3rd Dec '16 8:49:28 AM by CorrinLeoShipper

Are the Wonderswan games canon? Then super easy yes.

If not, then only the dub barely gets a yes. The sub does not, since he isn't heinous enough. What pushes him over is targeting of Kari, when having no real reason to do so. She was no real threat to him. His characterization is immense enough to avoid generic problems, and he definitely was fine with as much of brutality as possible.

I will note I do feel he's the lowest of the CM's so far among the anime itself. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be one, but the rest are overall more heinous, but he is still legitimately heinous on his own efforts. No other CM completely targets a single kid only to this degree(there's a partial case with Myotismon targeting two characters in particular, and he isn't targeting Kari in Adventure 1 so much as trying to stop the 8th Digidestined from existing).

I know about the Wonderswan games, but I'm torn on how to vote on this because Machinedramon needs to fuse with a different being in order to digivolve to Milleniummon. When that happens I can only wonder when Machinedramon begins and where Kimeramon ends, because anything done as Milleniummon can be contributed to them equally. I mean you could have written the exact same effort post for Kimeramon instead and we'd be in the same place.

On the other hand, this candidate would make a good litmus test for any character in a similar position. Zamasu, for example. Voting is something I want to do here, but I really need to think on it.

I believe Machinedramon was voted down when discussed before, mainly his actions in Adventure as opposed to whatever happened in the Wonder Swan Games. Though I personally disagreed.

edited 3rd Dec '16 9:11:55 AM by ANewMan

To be fair, the Wonder Swan games would count as new information worth considering.

Note that Kimeramon isn't presented as particularly intelligent. Clearly capable of his own thought, but definitely is more beast-like. He barely feels sentient.

How is Millenniumon presented? Is he highly intelligent or more of a beast who can barely think for himself? That would tell us which of the two personalities took over among the fusion. I say this, because it would also help determine if he could be considered too much of a generic doomsday villain like regular Kimeramon is. Obviously if Machinedramon is the dominant personality, there's no issue with avoiding being generic.

Keep in mind that's my thought about the fusion. I do think he easily fits the heinous standard even then, but only if canon.

Betrayer.

As for Machinedramon... I suppose I should clarify the Continuity Snarl the Wonderswan games bring. Well, put it to layman terms.

The games state the Dark Spores from 02 effectively came from Milleniumon (and all that entails), and Ryo from Tamers originates from the Wonderswan games.

So there is some canonicity. Just a giant Continuity Snarl.

Does Machinedramon count in my eyes... I'm not sure. Dub is more heinous than sub, and the additional Wonderswan games put him over the edge. But I don't know if we can attribute Milleniumon's crimes to Machinedramon. Then again, Armageddonmon came from a fuckton of Digimon in that one movie, and he was clearly his own individual..

edited 3rd Dec '16 9:26:24 AM by erazor0707

Armageddonmon is still Diaborormon though. The question here is, can we say the same for Millenniummon being Machinedramon? For the record, DNA Digimon are portrayed as retaining the memories of those who fused into them.

@ 72800 Ravok,

I like a balance between sympathetic and unsympathetic villains. Ultimate Marvel had way too many evil pricks as villains, with hardly any sympathetic villains.

I also don't like it when they make evil villains sympathetic or sympathetic villains evil, out of the blue. Have some villains that are sympathetic and villains that are evil and have them stay in those roles.

I am looking forward to seeing Bullseye on the Daredevil show, to have an evil villain balance out someone like Fisk.

I also thought it be cool if in the next Star Trek TV show, that the villains are a Klingon captain (we know a Klingon captain is supposed to be a character on the show) who tries to be as noble and honorable as possible and his superior officer, an egomaniacal psychopath who thinks everything he does is naturally honorable and thus can justify any action he wants towards the people he conquerors. That makes for a good dynamic.

edited 3rd Dec '16 10:44:53 AM by Overlord

@72800

I suppose that's why Ghetsis was brought up so often despite not being heinous enough. He was the first main villain of a main series game to have no redeeming qualities so it was a pretty big shift in comparison to the other main villains.

@ 72800 Giovanni, Lysandre and ESPECIALLY Ghetsis (who, in my eyes, would still be a decent candidate for the trope) had no sympathetic qualities whatsoever, so I don't see how that's such a recurring pattern. I'd say it is quite balanced.

edited 3rd Dec '16 11:03:17 AM by Forenperser

Lysandre has sympathetic qualities though. Lysandre sheds a tear when told that his plan will wipe out all Pokemon, has a strong bond with his Gyarados, and multiple NPC's within the game regard him as a Tragic Villain, Professor Sycamore included. Giovanni, while not quite sympathetic, still has redeeming aspects, being a Graceful Loser after his defeat as a gym leader and stating how he enjoyed the battle before happily giving the player the badge.

edited 3rd Dec '16 11:18:30 AM by Awesomekid42

The Gyrados bit is kind of an Informed Attribute, and given Sun and Moon's apparent treatment of Mega Evolution may not actually be valid anyway.

edited 3rd Dec '16 11:27:11 AM by doineedaname