During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
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to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Even besides the grammar: "acted as if he was incriminated by the forensics"...Um, that doesn't really help his case.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
I'm confused by that? Does it mean he claims the evidence was planeted or something as that kind of excuse would get laughed out of court.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I have an unfortunate cut to suggest, Sergeant Major Gross from Attack on Titan. Here is his entry:
- Sergeant Major Gross of the Kingdom of Marley military forces is introduced in a flashback when he catches young Eldians Grisha and Fay Yeager trying to see the airships at a field. Ordering Grisha savagely beaten, Gross leaves to take the eight-year-old Fay home, but instead feeds her to his dogs while she's alive and makes his own sons watch. Years later, Gross is in charge of turning the Eldians into mindless, man-eating Titans while releasing one man to be chased and ultimately devoured by his former comrades. Mocking Grisha himself for being Eldian, Gross states his reason for his actions is his desire to exterminate all Eldians and his belief that such cruelty is simply "fun". He then proceeds to turn the last of Grisha's comrades into a small Titan just for the fun of seeing Grisha and the Titan fight before Grisha is devoured.
I think there is enough evidence in both the anime and the manga that he loves his sons. I admit that I have only watched the anime but I did read chapters 86 and 87 of the manga (because he is a minor character who only appears in these two chapters) and I can confirm that the same applies to the manga as well even though there are some differences in the dialogue.
In the anime this is the exact dialogue between Grisha and Gross:
Gross: Well, I guess I get what you mean. If something that horrible were to happen to one of my children, my heart would break no question. You poor devils. It's a shame you had to be born Eldian.
...
He outright admits that he would feel bad if what he did to Grisha's sister, happened to his own sons.
In the manga this is the exact dialogue between Grisha and Gross:
Gross: Heh. I see what you're sayin'. And sure, I tense up when I think of the same thing happening to my sons.
...
I couldn't find anywhere that he says he wouldn't care if this happened to his own sons (and believe me, I searched very thoroughly for this line of dialogue) but as you can see, he actually says the exact opposite (that he would feel bad if this happened to his sons).
He does feed an Eldian girl alive to the dogs and makes his sons watch but that doesn't subvert his care for them. He thinks that Eldians are subhuman and need to be eradicated and he thinks he is teaching his sons "how the world works" and that the whole ordeal "built character". So, even that is an expression of love towards them.
If anyone wants to check it out for themselves, here are the chapters in which he appears:
(The conversation happens in chapter 87)
And here is the episode:
So, unless I am really overlooking something (which I doubt) Gross does display clear affection for his sons in both versions and should be cut.
Edited by WatTambor on Nov 28th 2022 at 8:16:43 PM
I’ll link the EP when I’m back home unless someone beats me to it but I do specifically recall it acknowledging his relationship with his sons. It’s been years but I wanna say we leaned on feeling he wanted to teach them to be his ideal citizens of Marley rather than caring for them as people(?)
Cut to Gross. Unprovoked comment about care for his family. Pretty damning.
The Moron
Found the EP - it mentions that Gross says he wouldn't be heartbroken if his family were to be fed to his dogs, so I'd like to hear Lighty's response before we go any further with cutting
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, I checked the EP before I read the chapters and I was specifically looking for this line while reading but I couldn't find it.
But yeah, let's wait for Lighty first.
Edited by WatTambor on Jul 30th 2022 at 10:57:14 PM
Just checked. Him saying he didn’t care was a bad translation. My bad on that! Cut him. King Fritz to remain though
Cut gross, disgusting man but genuinely cares for his family
Professor Gigachad
As much as it sucks yeah if that was wrong Cut Gross. Don't worry Lighty mistakes happen especially with bad translations, those are the worst.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Sad cut to gross, man that sucks
Yeah the one I saw was him asking how he could feel bad if his sons were killed. The official one (Comixology has it on unlimited) has him say very different. Sigh
The Emperor of Evil!
Cut Gros
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Gross
Also I’m on vacation till Monday night/Tuesday, so I’ll need a bit before Kung Fu panda. One possible keeper but while the main villains, Veruca and Klaus are debatably bad enough, they explicitly care for one another. Even if they bicker, argue and threaten, when the chips are down, they truly love each other
Goku Black
Cut Gross.
It's okay. Take your time.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cut Gross.
According to his character page King Fritz's first name is Karl? Is that official?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Damn that's frustrating but I guess the kind of thing we're bound to run into with a work playing Grey-and-Gray Morality. Chop away then!
Looking at the wiki that appears to be the given name of the 145th king... can't see a first name for the CM original king.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 30th 2022 at 4:10:14 AM
Professor Gigachad
If it makes you guys feel any better maybe you could find a fanfic version of him that removes the care for his son.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, looking at the wiki, Fritz and KARL Fritz are 2 different people.
That said, lemme make a small word order change and since there's only one entry:
- Attack on Titan's chapter 122—"From You, 2,000 Years Ago": Fritz, the first King of Eldia and the mythical Devil of All Earth, was a cruel tyrant who ran an empire on conquest, with countless slaves endlessly abused out of their very sense of self, many having tongues removed. When the young slave Ymir was accused of freeing pigs, the King tried to have her hunted for sport, whereupon she found the power of the Titan. Using her to exterminate and kill all in his path, the King raped her to produce children to inherit her power and upon her death, forced his daughters to eat her corpse raw, unleashing the new Titans on all his enemies to found an empire on genocide and blood.
Edited by ACW on Jul 30th 2022 at 4:17:40 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Bleh. Cut Sergeant Major Gross.
@Ordeaux26: We don't always gotta find an Adaptational Villainy fanfic version of someone who doesn't count in canon just to get said character up.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Cut Gross
Cut Gross. I hate that asshole for what he did and it’s a shame to see him go, but that seemed militating enough. At least we still have King Fritz
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 30th 2022 at 4:40:33 AM
Cut Gross.
Get well soon, Media.
Get well soon Media
Edited by nwotyzal on Jul 30th 2022 at 12:00:25 PM