During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Showtime!
I've got a candidate tonight I've been sitting on for a while due to a few minor issues.
What is the Work? The Mechanisms are a steampunk-esque Kayfabe Band who do Rock Operas adapting mythology and folklore in science-fiction settings set to folk music, with a heavy focus on lgbtq+ chracters and themes. Thread regulars will recognize one of the lead performers as Jonny Simms, lead writer of The Magnus Archives. Today's candidate is the Big Bad of their first full album, Once Upon a Time (In Space).
Who Is the Character? King Cole is the tyrannical, immortal ruler of a sprawling space empire. The first song on the album is a Villain Song (sung to a hard-rock version of the original rhyme's tune) about Cole's evil. Cole has been conquering solar systems for millenia in order to increase his own wealth and power. Cole wants a perfect army, and he decides to fulfill this desire by having his greatest soldier, Rose Red, kidnapped from her own wedding to be used as the genetic basis for a clone army, killing almost everyone else there in the process.
After the wedding, Rose's sister Snow White launches a rebellion against Cole, while Rose's would-be-bride Cinders sets off walking the galaxy looking for her. As the rebellion mounts (and the band's characters get involved because they think it'd be funny), it's revealed that Cole's throneworld has a defense grid powered by the first clone of Rose ever created, Briar Rose. When she went berserk due to having a near perfect copy of Rose's memories (including the whole "kidnapped from her wedding" thing), Cole had her converted to a power battery to fuel his defenses with her own hatred towards him, a state which her song reveals keeps her in a half-conscious tortured state.
Tie-in fiction on the website elaborates more on Cole's regime and crimes. Cole allows the Mad Scientist Gepetto to experiment on children to make cyborg super-soldiers, including Cole's own Praetorian Guard. Other stories make mention of prison camps and the development of chemical weapons.
The rebels attack Cole's capital, with Snow, her inner circle, and Cinder fighting their way to Cole's inner sanctum. Snow frees Rose from suspended animation right before being killed by one of Cole's Praetorian Guard. Rose and Cinders are briefly reunited, before Cole shoots Rose in the back and is killed by Cinders, rendering the rebellion's victory entirely pyrrhic, although a piece of tie-in fiction offers a bit of hope, with Cinders meeting the freed Briar Rose.
Heinous Standard
Cole makes the standard for the album. While The Revolution Will Not Be Civilized is in full effect, including attacks on civilian food supplies and bombing civilian hospitals, the revolution is still framed as in the right, goals-wise.
The heinous standard gets more complicated when the rest of the Mechs' discography is taken into account. The Mechanisms themselves, while played as Heroic Comedic Sociopaths, are still violent immortal maniacs who think mass murder is funny, although they do have standards; they're the ones who free Briar Rose, one side-story mentions Jonny D'Ville breaking into a children's ward to read the patients ghost stories, and they genuinely seem to like each other to a degree. The worst crime we ever hear of one of them committing is Ashes burning their home planet to the ground after being betrayed and nearly murdered there, and again, Mechs-focussed songs and side stories tend to be a lot more comedic.
The Olympians, rulers of the City Planet in Ulysses Dies At Dawn are pretty bad, being immortal crime lords whose method of immortality kills people horribly as a side effect, but they're generally presented as a unit, and none of the few who do get individual flourishes breach standard with them.
High Noon Over Camelot runs very heavily on Grey-and-Grey Morality even compared to the rest of the discography, and while it does end with the destruction of a planet-sized populated space station, the perpetrator is Mordred, who's very much a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds
The Bifrost Incident ends with a whole solar system being eaten by the elder gods post Cosmic Horror Reveal but while Odin's actions definitely lead to it, all her dialogue establishes her as an Unwitting Pawn who thought she could use their power to reinforce her tyranny right up until she loses control, so anything that could make her breach standard is unintentional.
Cole's status as the tyrannical ruler of an empire including thousands of solar systems for millennia puts him way above everyone else in scope of crimes, even before you count the fact that he's the only one to completely lack any redeeming features.
Mitigating features
This is my biggest issue, although it's comparatively small. The spoken word intro to Once says "Long ago he was a good king, a wise king, it was even said of him that he was merry. But the technology that had extended his life throughout the millennia had warped his mind as it had withered his body, and soon his soul grew red with the lust for conquest." I personally don't think this is disqualifying on an agency level, when it's one line compared to an hour of album and short stories showing Cole as being evil on both a massive cosmic and small personal scale (especially when taking in mind that everything else involving Immortality Immorality in the Mechs' discography is more on "being immortal makes other people's lives stop seeming so important" and less "being immortal is a flipped switch where you start immediately kicking puppies").
One of the final songs on the album is also a Distant Duet between Snow and Cole to their forces, but I don't think Cole having lines like "The names of our fallen shall long be sung In ballad and poem for years untold Let’s end the tale, we must not fail Be stalwart and true, my heroes bold" when they're to fire up his troops for a battle and are sung in unison with his Mirror Character is all that mitigating, especially when his lines not shared with Snow in that song are things like "Lay down your lives in defence of your king We’ll shore up the walls with the loyal dead Spill your blood in a crimson flood The wolves of war shall soon be fed"
Verdict
I'm going to say ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Cole, since I know we've loosened a little on "tell don't show" disqualifiers recently.
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
Just to clarify, I'm not passing judgement on the poster, or that WW is an unworthy addition, hence the . Just remarking how I don't care for the premise, given what the Confederacy was all about. Even without that, though, the fact it lasted less than 10 issues before being canned suggests it just wasn't very good, or they just didn't want to work on it anymore.
But, said my peace, cast my vote, nothing else for it. Moving on. Any other effortposts?
Edit: Will abstain on Cole for now, due to questions of heinous standard, but open to having my mind changed.
Edited by MinisterOfSinister on Mar 17th 2022 at 2:37:14 PM
We are ready to move on Sinister and our friend Library has given us a nice new topic to do so with: yes to Cole as we discussed there Emma!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'd double check the last paragraph of what she put in the HS section if you'd like more assurance there.
Edited by 43110 on Mar 17th 2022 at 10:42:43 AM
Showtime!
Sinister, I'm a little confused about what you'd need elaborated on, heinous-standard wise. I think i was pretty thorough
Ultimate Moral Compass
to the Not-So-Merry Old Soul
I just posted Bulbin's write-up in the drafts. Thanks for the ping, btw. :)
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Thankyou everyone for the condolences, I do appreciate it!
Wanted to drop in when seeing this, I love that album and have wanted to see him go up forever......I always found the line about the technology warping his mind to be too damning, but if were deciding it is not? Then To Cole
His sole 'Good' quality is that his song is legendary(https://youtu.be/FAY2Qxvfoes)
And yes, Heinousness is not in the Realm of an issue, the stuff in that song alone crushes the HS, and afterwards we get him massacering Rose and Cinders's wedding, keeping Briar in a horrific torture machine while using her to power his defense Grid...
Edited by Snoketrope on Mar 17th 2022 at 8:18:55 AM
The First man
Warren & Cole
Shin Megami Tensei IV
King Cole
Warren Worth
Bloodstone Emperor
Edited by KazuyaProta on Mar 17th 2022 at 10:31:58 AM
Watch me destroying my country
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
I don't think you did anything wrong explaining it, Library. On his own there's nothing about Cole himself that gives me pause. At the moment I guess I'm kind of in a Too Bleak, Stopped Caring state after hearing how destructive the revolution opposing Cole is, the Mechs included. None of that means he doesn't qualify though, hence the abstain.
That and I'm very tired at the moment which can't be much help, so I'm gonna get some sleep, and see how I feel tomorrow. Good night y'all.
Goodnight Sinister!
You're welcome Snoke.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 17th 2022 at 8:47:43 AM
I know Athalie from Muted was approved as a candidate, but was this write-up approved? I ask because this entry is about 517 words long.
She’s not on Monster.Webcomics. It’s clear the proposer just added her to the YMMV page without putting her on Drafts first.
Worth and Cole
Professor Gigachad
So guys its time for the discussion on The Batman (2022) (at least in most places), is there anything with that?
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Mar 17th 2022 at 10:40:15 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Professor Gigachad
I assumed as much from what I had heard. Though you may want to give some clarification on Riddler since I have a feeling that someone will ask about him.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
He knows what he's doing... if it's not enough to warrant an anti-EP or further discussion he'll address questions as they come up.
Messenger from another dimension.
But I seen the movie and I think Carmine Falcone might count. He is definitely the worst character in the story.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
On the subject of Athalie, I don't know if this counts as a potential mitigating issue, but I thought I'd bring it up since I don't think it was mentioned in the original effort post (maybe the chapter hadn't been released then, I'm not sure).
In Episode 122, as Athalie is about to die, she flashes back to one last memory: a conversation she has with her sister during a birthday party many years ago. While the conversation is heated, there is a moment where Athalie almost reaches out to comfort her sister when the latter admits her husband is dead, and while Athalie still espouses her "Control and power is what kept our family strong" creed, when she is told by her sister "I miss you, Athalie. I miss my sister," she responds "I miss you too, sometimes. But it's too late. For both of us."
While this is a memory from long ago, the fact that this is framed as Athalie's final thoughts seems to invite the possibility that, deep down, Athalie may harbor a tiny bit of regret over how things turned out. The chapter, at the very least, seems to want to convey some form of tragedy in her death.
Just something I wanted to bring up since I recently caught up with the webcomic after it ended.
Edited by dragonfire5000 on Mar 17th 2022 at 11:31:37 AM
Okay, so...
Riddler is a mass murderer and literally floods the city in a natural disaster. The sheer fact of the matter, though? His excuse is too valid. He is shaped by a horrific childhood and is a child lashing out at the world as a result.
Falcone, in comparison, doesn't have much. A few murders we see, but the rest can only be inferred. There's not even close the amount we'd need to ascribe a true pattern, mob boss or no. He's just a basic mobster who's slightly nastier than the norm.
Agreed. Having seen The Batman movie again, I can say that Falcone would have counted if he wasn't in a Batman film. But since it's a Batman film, he simply pales to the Riddler in terms of damage. And the Riddler had far less resources than Falcone. The only way for Falcone to beat that would be to deliberately plunge Gotham into a huge gang war just to kill his rivals, but the Riddler cut that possibility short.
Professor Gigachad
Yeah that is what I expected. Another of those instances where the villain heinous enough has mitigating factors and the villain without them isn't bad enough.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Warren
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.