During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Gull and woods.
I admit West is weird. I do wonder why he's never been brought up since he's one of Lovecraft's most infamous villains. Was he just missed ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'd have to say no to West. Lighty and I discussed him before, I think the other human cultists have him licked for body count (and this is totally leaving out the equally-vile cults that don't have any qualifiers). Even among the ones who aren't trying to destroy humanity, Heinrich alone has West minced in body count about a thousand to one.
Edited by Scraggle on Oct 18th 2021 at 5:05:59 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Gull and Fulk. No to West.
Feels good, don't it?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Stellarvore, it's at the Drafts, but feel free to add the potholes where you want them. Maybe "used" instead of "employed"?
Yes to Gull and Woods.
What happens to the vampires?
Edited by ACW on Oct 18th 2021 at 7:03:03 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to Gull and Woods. Abstain on West.
Gull the Ripper.
Woodrow Fulk.
Yes to Woodrow.
The issue I'm finding with West...setting aside concerns for heinousness for a moment, the issue is very little of what West does is intentional. Sure he's kinda borderling sociopathic in his disregard for others in how often things go wrong with his reanimations but it really does seem to me as oblivious and careless as opposed to malicious and murderous
Lizzid people!
Tentative ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to West. Don't be discouraged, though, it was a good first EP and we all have candidates that don't pan out for one reason or another.
I did take the opportunity to look over the Cthulhu mythos page and... yeah, I do now think West isn’t heinous enough, especially next to Old Whateley. Shame, as he’s an utter bastard otherwise.
He never sleeps. He says he will never die.
Fulk
Sad nay to West (good first EP though)
Ultimate Moral Compass
West. Though nice first EP, Vyn.
Professor Gigachad
West, sucks, but this sounds like a case where despite him being an absolute bastard he can't qualify because many other villains in the franchise are somehow even worse than him.
Goku Black
West
Okay, so, I have stumbled on someone who I think is a fairly easy - if disgusting - keep, and guess what? It's from a director who's well known for his plot twists.
I don't want to immediately do the EP since it's been a while since I saw the film in question so give me a chance to rewatch it and the other two, but... let's just say this shouldn't be too hard a keeper.
He never sleeps. He says he will never die.
Hey, go for it. Don't be discouraged if you don't have any successes yet, btw. You're doing a very good job at laying out information and putting in honest posts.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah...goodness knows we've ALL had candidates who were rejected; I've had more than a few.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@Vyn "A director well known for his plot twists….." Oh shit….. I think I got a slight idea who this director is.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ditto that...just can't think of what we missed.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
You know what? With that encouragement, I'll just do the EP now.
What's the work?
Split is a 2017 horror film by director M. Night Shyamalan, with the plot twist being it's actually a sequel to the film Unbreakable. It was hailed as being a sign of his return as a skilled director... until he released Glass.
The plot focuses on Casey, who is abducted along with two other girls by a man with several split personalities. Three of them are preparing for the coming of a new personality, the Beast...
But Casey has a past of her own.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
John is the uncle of Casey, who learn about through flashbacks. Introduced being chummy with his brother before a hunting trip, John's true colors are revealed when he wakes up early and beckons a young Casey to come with him.
The two then play a game together, where they... act like animals, as John puts it. And animals don't wear clothes. As his dialogue makes clear? John has done this game with Casey several times. After the game, a distraught Casey points a gun at John, nearly pointing the trigger as John begins to guilt trip her for daring to do so, then snatches it from her and bitterly tells her "You could have killed me."
After the death of Casey's father, John becomes her guardian, and it's made clear the abuse continued for years. In the Beast's confrontation with Casey, he discovers she has scars from when she'd Self-Harm, causing him to declare her pure and so, she is spared his wrath. The film ends with Casey being picked up by the police with the strong implication she's finally going to put her uncle behind bars, which as Glass confirms, does indeed happen.
Any mitigating factors or Freudian Excuse?
Nothing. At the funeral of his brother, John feigns sadness and tries to comfort Casey, but then immediately resorts to disturbing, forceful possessiveness of her now she's in his care. It's the only time he even approaches decency and is clearly an act.
Do they meet the heinous standard?
The competition is with Glass, a Diabolical Mastermind who caused a train crash, and the Beast, who cannibalizes and kills people who he feels haven't suffered. Neither count for several reasons. But John's an incestuous pedophile who molests his own niece for years to the point she's self harming. It might be one victim, but it's a remarkably disgusting crime that really stands out.
Conclusion?
I'd say keep him.
Edited by Vyn on Oct 18th 2021 at 8:31:53 AM
He never sleeps. He says he will never die.
The Draftsman of Doom
I am not familiar with the series: I assume that 1. Uncle John is the sole sexual predator in the film series; and 2. there is a discretion shot to his abuse?
I am leaning towards approval assuming he is the setting's sole sexual predator, especially since we see the psychological toll of his repeated abuse.
At the very least, assuming there are no other sexual predators in the film, he does stand out by the standard of the work, if not the genre.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 18th 2021 at 11:37:09 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
-inhales sharply-
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, sure?
To be fair, I don't recall any other pedophiles in the trilogy. And he doesn't even care about his own brother dying. So I'm inclined to say for John.
Edited by Tyk5919 on Oct 18th 2021 at 11:36:01 AM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
To clarify, yes, there's a discretion shot so we don't actually see it, but the results are still there. And again, he's been doing it for years.
He never sleeps. He says he will never die.
Having similar concerns to Snoke regarding West. Will wait for others to vote.