During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
grayman
to Banton, Ahmanet and Patrick Grayman.
Ahmanet. At least they didn't try, and fail, to make her into a Tragic Villain this time around.
Goku Black
Btw someone added an entry to Wolfwalkers
Edited by miraculous on May 28th 2021 at 6:40:23 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Corinthian.
Ingrid.
The Lost Duo.
Megatron.
Salem.
Haren The Black.
Banton.
Ahmanet.
Grayman.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Funny enough, based on his character page, it does sound like he's heinous enough, but I haven't seen the film so I'm not sure.
for Ahmanet and Patrick
Also, Salem has 8 , so I'll get to working on her write up.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Caleb, Evan, Megatron, Salem, Harren, Banton, Ahmanet and Grayman
Yeah to Grayman.
And a hearty yes to Grayman
- Ruby and Nora:
- Salem is far worse then her canon counterpart. Imprisoned for killing her sister, she then slaughtered her father and the rest of her Kingdom after being empowered by Void. Making a deal with Void to summon him to Remnant in exchange for godhood, Salem created the Grimm to "tear humanity to shreds". Secretly committing multiple atrocities throughout her immortal life, she eventually stepped out from the shadows to begin her endgame. In the form of Cinder Fall, she recruits many to her cause, some through Mind Rape and blackmail, and will kill them for failure or when they have no more use to her. Salem has them cause death and destruction to begin the Fall of Beacon, where she kills many heroes, including Weiss. Mutilated by Ruby's silver eyes, she sends her allies to kill her for revenge, brutally killing one of them when they fail. Left out of commission after the Battle of Haven, she returns to slaughter the entirety of the Kingdom of Vacuo, kill Willow Schnee and finally summon Void to be made a goddess who can torture her enemies for all eternity. Driven by nothing but her hunger for power and sadism, Salem was a force to be reckoned with as she sought to destroy Remnant.
Yello! Been adjusting to a new job, hence my absence most of this week.
First off, Grayman is a yep.
Second, I've decided to read Secret Six all the way through, and I've found a character I legitimately think should be cut from the list: Junior/Alex Merkel. I'll explain why I think this using another DC character as precedent. You may recall that the Green Lantern Animated version of Atrocitus was listed for a while due to his hypocrisy in destroying other people's planets despite supposedly having been traumatized by the destruction of his own. He was cut fairly recently when we realized that, hypocrite or not, said Freudian Excuse does indeed still affect him and informs everything he does. Remember, FE does not justify, it explains.
Alex, in my view, seems no different - everything she does is rooted in her father, Ragdoll, molesting her as a child. Her motive, as she states herself, is to force everyone to feel the kind of pain she did, and the trauma is still very strong with her - even being looked at by a man she constitutes as a sexual assault, to the point that she shhots her own henchman dead for doing so.
Junior is awful, but I legitimately can't see how her case is different from Animated Atrocitus' here. Thoughts?
She got raped as as child by her own father? That’s a cut from me.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on May 28th 2021 at 11:14:33 AM
Hmmm...I'll think it over, but leaning cut there now, bringing it up.
The biggest issues for me, though...Junior states in no uncertain terms she refuses to repent, she knows it's wrong, but continues it because she enjoys it as well.
The Emperor of Evil!
I'm gonna take a bit of a break from the internet, I was gonna do an Effortpost but since I had a bad day with a family member I think I might need a bit of a break. Not sure how long it will take though.
Gentle Laborer
Grayman
- A Dollar to Die For: Banton is the cruel chief of an escaped band of bloodthristy Braves that have slaughtered an entire cavalry detail and burned ranches to the ground on their way to the Mexican border. Arriving on the village of Tyopa, Banton gives the order for his men to rape and scalp people en masse to their heart's content. A Serial Rapist himself, Banton was known for participating in similar massacres and saving "the occasional woman" that would be taken back with him.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on May 28th 2021 at 12:18:50 PM
Junior seems like a cut, but the unrepentance gives me pause. I'll wait.
Hope things get better
Edited by nwotyzal on May 28th 2021 at 8:24:21 AM
Late to Banton.
If a character is genuinely fucked, unrepentance doesn’t matter anymore.
That's basically my thought, yeah. Again, she can't even be looked at by a man without being retraumatized to a homicidal degree.
Professor Gigachad
Eh, I'm not as sure if she is really doing her crimes out of pure sadism that makes her FE pretty flat as it at that point has nothing to do with the crimes she commits. Leaning towards a Keep.
The Atrocitus comparison doesn't really work in that case since his motive is Revenge.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on May 28th 2021 at 8:57:46 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Woagh
I agree. Junior is a genuine sadist, so I think the FE really doesn't make much of a difference. She just enjoys being a monster. She has also killed a prostitute for simply bothering her, so I don't think there's much justifying that one.
Edited by ClownPrince47 on May 28th 2021 at 12:05:17 PM
'Yes' to Banton and Ahmanet
For my next from Jonathan Janz, thanks again to Lighty for recommending this one...
What's the work?
The Nightmare Girl is a novel by our horror novel man of the month Jonathan Janz, following family man Joe Crawford as he intervenes when he spies a mother violently abusing her infant...then she starts stalking Joe. Then she burns herself alive. Then even more weird shit starts happening that endangers not just Joe, his wife Michelle and their toddler Lily, but the entire town of Shadeland.
Who is Patrick Grayman? What has he done?
An ever-serene, fanatical madman who serves as the face and primary orator of a vicious cult set in Shadeland, Patrick Grayman claims to have been alive for centuries, using his cult to follow the perpetually-reincarnated "Mother" as their goddess in the quest for immortality.
Grayman's cult has a simple system: during the time of "St. John's Eve", his cult push the indoctrinated children of one their members to kill themselves—usually by burning alive—then go about slaughtering "heathens" in their area, having exterminated and even cannabilized entire families in the past. This combination of "cleansing heathens" and "willing, innocent" sacrifice (somehow) fulfills their rituals and extends the lives of the cult. Under Grayman's lead, the cult violently abuse their own children for years and perform other unsavory dark magic fuckery!
As the story starts, cult member Angie burns herself alive thanks to her abused baby Stevie being taken from her by social services following Joe Crawford's exposing of the abuse. Grayman and his cult begin stalking and tormenting Joe and his family, notably by throwing his long-dead son's ashes in his face, trying to beat him on the side of the road, and other nastyness towards his whole family. With Angie serving as the "willing sacrifice", Grayman also begins his cult's "cleansing of heathens" by slaughtering the elderly Hawkins' couple after torturing them, and also kidnaps Stevie and his new foster parents the Morrisons.
Eventually, when Joe and his bud Police Chief Copeland begin investigating Grayman and his cult, Grayman lures them into a trap and tricks Copeland into shooting Bruce Morrison, having sewn the man's mouth shut and put him in the room in a frenzy so Copeland would kill him out of fear, all this just for fun. Also killing Bruce's wife, Grayman sics his "hunters" onto Copeland, getting him viciously killed by cannibalistic members of the cult whole Joe is taken captive.
Revealing his hand in Joe's suffering and outright bragging how "enjoyable" it's been, Grayman reveals he plans to burn Stevie and Joe alive, then go after Joe's wife and infant daughter, planning to raise Lily to be the next "willing sacrifice" after enough years and continue their cycle forever. Luckily, Michelle shows up with backup and shoots Grayman dead, while Joe escapes and manages to take down the current reincarnation of "the Mother" goddess, saving his family for now, and though his fears that splinters of the cult may come after his family one day, for now he's content to just have his family in arms again and the nightmare be over.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Mmmmm no. Grayman's got the usual "my brothers and sisters" speeches towards his cult but he's got zero scenes of actual care towards them, and outright promotes them killing themselves horribly to further support his and others' eternal youth. Grayman's astoundingly unempathetic to fellow cult members' own feelings on their kids dying in his name, and Grayman comes off as totally in it for his own fanatical enjoyment, with a point being made that unlike the rest of the cult who seem apprehensive, necessary evil, or viciously raging and emotional, Grayman is perpetually calm and sadistically enjoying all the horrors he and his cult get up to. His devotion to "the Mother" is also just typical cult fanatical Psycho Supporter shit, praising the "goddess" for giving him eternal youth.
Heinousness?
As the primary face of the cult and second only to the Mother (who I don't think counts because of strange morality and personality quirks), Grayman's the worst in the story at the end of the day, propagating and endorsing his cult of child abuse, indoctrinated-induced suicide, and cannibalistic murder. Entire families are known to have died thanks to the cult, and the horrors he gets up to in the present are plentiful, from tricking Copeland into shooting an innocent, maimed man, to trying to burn an infant alive...yah Grayman's a dick.
Final Verdict?
Bingo!
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.