Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

That's Fridge Horror. To the primary demographic they're not going to automatically make the connection to "no rain or tending the fields" to "everyone is going to starve."

That.

I don't really think it's Fridge Horror, considering Celestia outright tells us what Tirek's plan would do and we've touched on the prospect of famine in this series before (Hearth's Warming Eve) and in the Word of God on Nightmare Moon.

Also, to put context in the above, the resulting fight between Twilight and Tirek essentially OBLITERATES the surrounding area, which shows just how much collateral damage Tirek was capable of. Tirek was willing to unleash that power in the direction of a population center with zero remorse.

I need to think on Tirek...I could go either way on him.

For now, let me discuss the further Psycho Pass examples I think qualify:

Rikako Oryo, a Psycho Lesbian schoolgirl who enjoys playing The Oujo as it suits her...spend too much time with her and you notice something...'off' about Rikako: She's disturbingly calm about everything, and has no passions whatsoever.Under Makishima's guidance, she becomes an incredibly effective Serial Killer by preying on other schoolgirls. Rikako drugs them and rapes them before mutilating them and displaying the corpses as pieces of art that conform to her dead father's old paintings...Rikako has little but contempt for her father, though she enjoys and respects the art.

Rikako is an ardent admirer of Shakespeare as well, specifically Titus Andronicus for its depiction of human cruelty. At one point she recites the story of the mutilated Lavinia to a victim as she drugs her.

Makishima, however...well, he does get bored sometimes...

The second is Toyohisa Senguji, a rich bastard who's converted his body to a cyborg's shell. In his spare time, however, Senguji staves off his boredom by staging 'fox hunts' with cybernetic dogs. he has his dogs rip into the victims before executing them himself. Senguji has no excuse for this, no reason...he's just a bored, rich bastard who thinks he has the right to do whatever he wants to people. We see him on several hunts, and he attempts to trap the team in them before he's outmaneuvered and killed. However, he has dozens of victims, they discover, giving him a bodycount unmatched by any except Makishima's himself.

he also has a creepy habit of taking trophies by carving his victims' bones into useful little tools.

Senguji is just a sadistic bastard, nothing else to it. I think he makes the cut.

edited 10th May '14 8:39:34 PM by Lightysnake

I'm saying no on Tirek. In fact I'm saying hell no. And I'm saying it for exactly the reasons that Shaoken mentions—the show's primary demographic will not make a connection between "no tending fields" and "everybody dies". It doesn't even sound like "everybody dies" is even on the table, given that Tirek wants to rule the world after the fact (nothing to rule if everyone is dead). The people arguing for his inclusion are applying adult logic to a children's program, in an effort at coming up with a qualifier.

We don't see anybody starve. In fact the word "starvation" isn't even mentioned. Which means any use of it in this argument is Fridge Horror, and not what the show is going for. Until the show actually makes it clear that people are dying—and it has not—there is no way that you can call him out for creating a famine.

No I say again. And I'll register my irritation with those who are trying to use Fridge Logic to argue a character on.

That Fridge Logic thing has come up repeatedly, especially in kids' shows, almost as though people are trying to say "My favorite show is actually mature and not for little girls you guys!"

Relatedly, I think Inferred Holocaust also might need a fix. Saw a lot of that last time I was at that page.

@Godzilla Wolf - You're bringing too much Fridge Logic into this. Yes, starting a fight in a populated area is liable to cause deaths in a serious work, but this is a kid's show cartoon. Buildings getting demolished doesn't equal loss of life, hence why Power Rangers, Iron Man and every other comparable show get away with lot's of collateral damage without delving into the "people are either dead, hurt or homeless because of this violence."

So reaffirming the "Hello No" vote on this one and expressing annoyance the perceived "having a Complete Monster is a badge of honour" attitude that keeps people pushing villains who simply fall short.

Power Rangers has had full death more than once, and it's not sugarcoated at all at times. Very poor example.

That said, he could come back and MLP isn't over. Until his character arc is over, there's no way to tell if he could redeem himself yet. I vote to put it on hold till then. Otherwise a blatant yes. He entirely fits the heinous standard and has absolutely no issues bringing about the end of the world due to his selfishness and completely evil tendencies.

Not buying the "too kiddy" image here. I find it a poor excuse, when the only good reason to not have a CM has been so far that they're known for redeeming themselves in this work, and that's it. The show has been extremely dark at many times, more than enough to have a CM in general. It's just a matter of the redeeming factor at this point. Tirek is more or less a yes as it stands. Also, it is hardly fridge horror. His actions will cause the end of the world, not even a contest(and made pretty damn clear as well. Following the actual story, they outright need the land and such to survive. It's even part of the history, that they had a lot of trouble surviving till the 3 Pony types worked together.). And he doesn't care and will do it anyway. Easy vote for me. I'm very unconvinced he doesn't count because of the tone of the show at all. Since the tone doesn't justify him not being a CM at this point in time in any way. Wait till the end to see if he redeems himself. Otherwise, yes, final decision on this.

The criteria isn't "they don't redeem themselves," it's "they can't redeem themselves even through a Redemption Equals Death" moment. And going from all the past examples being absolutely irredeemable is impossible, it goes against the themes of the show.

So it doesn't matter that he hasn't redeemed himself, all that matters is wether or not he could. And for all the supposed "darkness" of the show nobody has ever put forward an argument that the show could cross that line.

So again, "hell no" vote from me and that will stand for every villain period until one of them actually does something worthy of being called a Complete Monster rather than simply being worse than the ones before.

Well the thing about Tirek? He was never shown to be redeemable. He was put in the equivalent of Hell twice over. All of his actions shows he was a powerhungry monster.

That is completely besides the point. He has yet to redeem himself(if at all, and there's really no way to tell if he will, and no, the tone doesn't guarantee this in any possible way, a precedent that needs to leave the table right now. We wait till they do or don't, and when their character arc is over, not assume they totally will go good in some way), and unless he does, he made the standard beyond easily with his current actions. It's more than dark enough.

My vote is yes outside of a redemption. No questions asked here. I know the information quite well, and the actions will kill the land, ending life with absolutely no doubts. That's just not ignorable in my eyes in any possible way. It goes way too far, and the series already has some characters who were never redeemed either, just not monstrous enough to count(Gilda is a perfect example of this. She's a complete dick in the show, and has no redeeming qualities. Her actions just aren't heinous enough to count. The show is perfectly fine with having characters that aren't redeemable as is, and currently does as is. Another is Flim and Flam, they also aren't heinous enough to count at all. More dickish than Gilda, however. Easily willing to let people get hurt to the point of being hospitalized, something shown in-series, with broken wings and such, and no qualms about it. Just nothing as heinous at Tirek, however. They don't set the bar in this case either, still too low, but only barely).

Exactly. It's a wait-and-see at this point. He's beyond unlikely to have a single redeeming quality, much like the other 3 I mentioned. Fitting the heinous standard? Easily.

edited 10th May '14 11:37:26 PM by Irene

No it's not besides the point. Irredeemable means irredeemable, not "well they haven't done it yet so good enough." That is the criteria, we didn't fight so hard to put it in so people can ignore it when it suits them.

I think there were one or two lines implying he intended to rule Equestria when he finished draining magic.

The word "implying" rubs me the wrong way. He'd have to make his intentions perfectly clear in order for him to get even a chance at passing.

@Godzillawolf: Don't most supervillains attack populated areas without any remorse or hesitation? All this seems to show to me is that Twilight Sparkle is more of a hero than Superman in Man Of Steel, not that Tirek is any more of a villain than a standard one. And he's not even as bad as the Nibiru Entity. Tirek drains pony's magic power and leaves them to die naturally from there: the Nibiru Entity devoured an entire town's population. There's quite a difference.

@Hamburger Time: Doesn't Inferred Holocaust refer to when a happy ending has Fridge Horror, anyway? Nothing happy about what would happen if Tirek won.

That said, he could come back and MLP isn't over. Until his character arc is over, there's no way to tell if he could redeem himself yet. I vote to put it on hold till then. Otherwise a blatant yes. He entirely fits the heinous standard and has absolutely no issues bringing about the end of the world due to his selfishness and completely evil tendencies.

I agree with this, except I'm not sure the yes is "blatant" since this Tirek's heinous level isn't even quite as high as the previous Tirek's.

Not buying the "too kiddy" image here. I find it a poor excuse, when the only good reason to not have a CM has been so far that they're known for redeeming themselves in this work, and that's it.

Except no, some villains have not redeemed themselves in this show. The thing is that the possibility of those villains redeeming themselves (minus Sombra, who was like an evil force of nature) is always open because the show preaches the values of friendship, forgiveness, and learning to get along despite differences. Tirek is this show's heinous standard not only for his actions, but because he flat out rejects those ideals entirely by choice. So nobody should be arguing he's redeemable, 'cause he's clearly not. The question is whether that equates him to being a Complete Monster. Remember, one can be a pure evil, irredeemable person while still not passing this trope.

The show has been extremely dark at many times, more than enough to have a CM in general.

I don't know why, but for some reason this statement rubs me the wrong way.

So it doesn't matter that he hasn't redeemed himself, all that matters is wether or not he could.

Well, he sure wasn't willing to make peace with the ponies and his own brother the first go 'round...

Anyway, I think I do lean more towards overall for Tirek, but I'm not going to actually give that vote. I still say we throw him aside until the show's over.

You're missing the point entirely, Shaokan.

I don't care about the definition you just said, since I was using it exactly the same overall anyway.

I already made it very clear that he needs to stay unredeemable till the end of the show)which I never said once otherwise). I don't know where you're getting the idea otherwise, and don't care either. You're wrong about what I mean. And I'd appreciate it if you cut it out with this pointless derail to argue semantics when we mean the same thing.

Moving on, I vote yes unless he gets redeemed. All there is to it.

edited 10th May '14 11:58:19 PM by Irene

I'm still abstaining for now, but I do have a couple issues, Shaoken...we do allow for people to be voted on once the arc's over, you don't need me to tell you that. Tirek was dealt with and imprisoned in the underworld at the end of the show, so that seems to be fair game for voting.

Secondly...as lighthearted as MLP is, it doesn't suggest redemption is evil possible for Tirek. Nobody bothers to try and no mention of it is made. Redemption possibility, for me, has to be due to intrinsic characteristics and not an overall "anyone can if they want to" message. Unless Tirek show some good qualities, I don't really think that's a DQ any more than Tolkien's 'anyone can be redeemed and nobody is 100 percent evil' excuses Morgoth.

I'm not saying people can't vote, I'm saying I don't think he counts and nothing further.

I get you. I'm abstaining and milling it over, but just addressing what I thought was an overall issue. I think if Tirek is disqualified over anything, it's baseline heinous standard.

Any further Psycho Pass thoughts, guys? Rikako seemed confirmed before I even proposed her here.

edited 11th May '14 12:54:22 AM by Lightysnake

This. on Tirek. Fridge logic and implication isn't enough when the show's primary demographic isn't going to make those connections. Also, from the description I'm seeing here, I'm getting a few Generic Doomsday Villain vibes.

edited 11th May '14 12:56:32 AM by KyleJacobs

On the psycho pass villains;

• For Rikako, what's Makishima like and what are the details of his guidance?
• For Toyohisa, I'd give a based on your description.

Makishima we confirmed as a keep some pages back. He likes to find people who are budding serial killers and give them the means and encouragement to put it into action. he doesn't really try to corrupt people who were previously innocent or manipulate them...he just finds the ones who are already dark and twisted.

Rikako does pretty much everything on her own. Makishima never involves himself with the actual murders and he certainly doesn't give her any ideas she isn't already putting into practice.

Gosh this thread moves fast when it's talking about ponies. Sigh.

I'm standing firmly by my no vote for Tirek, but on the whole redemption thing... I've already said we need to drop that bit from the never again list, because I think it's demonstrably untrue that the show works that way. I suppose it's possible that any irredeemable villain on it would have to be a Generic Doomsday Villain (Tirek sounds like he has more personality than Sombra, but that's apparently a low benchmark to clear), but I don't think it's as inherently incapable of having an irredeemable villain at all as we originally made out.

Of course, as has been said - but needs to be further emphasized - not all irredeemable villains are Complete Monsters.

edited 11th May '14 1:55:56 AM by nrjxll

Okay, browsed through the character page for the show and came across this Rikako example spoiler tagged out entirely (I'll remove the spoiler tag on the trope name per rules and junk):

• Revenge:In a way, Rikako wanted this for what society and the Sibyl System had done to her Dad. By the Sibyl System taking away her father's ability to make art, he lost the will to live. Makishima believes Rikako makes "real" versions of her father's violent art as a way to "get back" at society. Considering the only person Rikako has any respect for is her father, and how Rikako tells Makishima about how she despises her society and the Sibyl System....

Someone want to explain what this system supposedly is for us unenlightened?

Hi. I request to add Myrkul from The Forgotten Realms in Neverwinter Nights 2. He's already mentioned as a Complete Monster in Forgotten Realms for:

1: Architecting The Wall of the Faithless. A wall there souls of nay-theists in FR are sent after death for not worshipping gods where they're slowly petrified out of existence in a very painful and horrifying manner, which Myrkul enjoyed with sadistic pleasure.

2: Turning a rebellious high priest into a soul eating curse which body surfs from victim to victim, forcing them to eat souls, erasing them from existence and said host will die and end up in the aforementioned wall if they don't get sustenance and the spirit eater will jump to the closest sentient victim and the cycle goes on. Myrkul also created the spirit eater in order to prolong his own existence, since FR-gods Needs Prayer Badly and can regain their consciousness even after death as long as mortals remember them. People will fear him as long as the spirit eater exist.

Both points are emphasised in Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer in great detail and are both key subjects to the plot.

Not all irredeemable villains are complete monsters, but all complete monsters are irredeemable villains.

I still think that Tirek is a possible CM, and I don't appreciate how you imply that the intended demographic for the show wouldn't know that no water = death. I believe they're smart enough to realize that everyone would starve to death without water. Again, it's not Fridge Horror if it was outright stated that this would happen if Tirek won. And besides, he appears to have more of a personality than Sombra did. He spoke more.