Alan Wake 2

If we have a thread for it (or even the orginal) I can't find it, so opening one here. Gameplay trailer just dropped with a release date:

Also includes some plot details. Looks to be that Alan is still trying to escape the Dark Place, this time by writing Alex Casey (the Max Payne expy from the novels that made him famous) and his partner, Agent Anderson, into the story. They arrive in Bright Falls to investigate Agent Nightengale's death, and find themselves trapped in Alan's new story, which he has less control of than he'd like. It looks like the story will alternate between sections playing as Anderson in Bright Falls and sections playing as Alan in the Dark Place, which is a neat idea.

Fittingly this kinda ties into the easter eggs from Quantum Break about the "real" Alex Casey and how weirded out he is by the existence of Alan's novels. Also, of course, Casey is voiced by James McCaffrey and uses Sam Lake's likeness, in case the reference wasn't obvious enough. Honestly I feel like in an alternate universe where Rockstar didn't buy the IP, Alex would just straight-up be Max Payne, lmao

Trope page here

Edited by Dirtyblue929 on May 24th 2023 at 4:33:23 AM

A video from Remedy about the game's 2nd protagonist, Saga Anderson

I wonder if they're going to interweave this game with Control even further as well, considering the events of the game's DLC.

I now want some hardboiled noir Alex Casey games.

I kinda hope not. I feel like Control having too much involvement just makes Alan Wake's narrative and stakes bow to the bigger picture.

I'd prefer them to be separate, but one can give dramatic context to the other. Control gives us a bigger picture perspective and a clinical view, but Alan Wake is in the meat of a AWE and has the emotional narrative impact.

They can nod at each other, but too much from one into the other feels like a distraction.

Granted, the writing has to contend to some degree with "Well, why isn't the FBC getting involved? Why isn't Jessie swooping in to solve the plot?", even if I can accept the Doyalist answer of "Because this is Alan Wake 2, not Control 2."

Hell, I would be ok with the FBC getting involved... only to be instantly tounced and thrown out of the narrative. Just some red shirt agents to show up and instantly be killed to show the Dark Presence's power. Acknowledge enough that they should be there by world rules, but they're not important to this story.

Edited by InkDagger on Jun 3rd 2023 at 1:34:37 AM

I think I'd like to see something like that too. Having some FBC mooks get subverted/killed would be nice to see without them taking up narrative space.

Maybe a hint that Jessie herself also isn't available to avoid any issues with the scope of the story needing to stay somewhat confined? Like you find a memo in their hotel room later or something?

I didn't mean being involved in that we have a major supporting role from the FBC or Jesse; I meant more like more direct confirmation of their worlds being connected and how Bright Falls is basically one huge ongoing AWE, much like suggests. We know Jesse is directly aware of Bright Falls at this point, so there would be questions as to why the FBC wouldn't be taking more direct action to actually take care of the Dark Presence, though just confirming that the FBC is still in the process of rebuilding and reinforcing its ranks after the Hiss event is more than enough answer.

The weird thing about Alan Wake is that any sort of narrative inconsistency or weird plot hole can be explained simply as, "Because that's what Alan wrote."

The FBC will only be involved in Bright Falls if Alan writes them into his script, and then only to such a degree as Alan writes.

Arguably, Alan may have created the HISS and Jessie and her brother.

So the FBC really should be pissed at Alan.

Assuming Alan didn't make them in the first place.

Yeah, but that's also a built in cop-out answer and it's one thing I didn't exactly like about the original set up.

"Because Alan wrote it that way!" "And why did Alan write it that way?" "...Because the writers did and left a plothole or inconsistency in *their* writing..."

I don't mind if "Alan wrote is that way" is brought up in-universe as some obstacle to overcome: "JFC Alan, why aren't there any guns in this police station?!" "Because weapons are antithetical to the nature of horro-" "YOU'RE SHITTY WRITING RULES ARE ANTITHETICAL TO MY ABILITY TO LIVE!"

Like, that would be really funny; Alan giving convoluted narrative tension and pacing rules for why the characters are struggling and everyone dumbfounded and glaring at him over the answers. Alan isn't wrong since his writing has to hold water but they're not wrong to be upset they can't find a goddamn pistol when they need one or that their flashlights go out at the most convenient time.

I just don't like "Alan wrote it that way" as a means to handwave genuine writing problems. Its a crutch at that point.

I don't think it's a plothole or inconsistency that the story Alan writes will only unfold in the way that Alan writes it. The FBC are subject to the same metaphysical rules as everyone else. The Hiss invasion made that extremely clear.

So if Alan didn't write, "And then Jesse showed up and solved everything with her superpowers," then Jesse isn't going to show up and solve everything with her superpowers. That's not a plot hole. That's not an inconsistency. It's how the story works.

It's a narrative conceit that the Dark Presence is basically the villain from Misery in that it isn't just directionless malevolence. Weirdly, it's a fanboy of narrative storytelling and if you provide it with a good story, it will make it reality even if it hurt it. The Dark Presence wasn't vulnerable to light, for example, until it was written to be and the Old Gods of Asgard people became badass Hunter of Monsters types because they wrote heavy metal songs where they were.

It also resulted in their friend, Loki, turning against them (probably).

The real question is how much the Dark Presence is just using preexisting people versus the Dark Presence is straight up God and let's Alan Wake tinker with the universe. In the "soft" version, Alan Wake only influences things and can make a series of events happen as long as the Dark Presence is satisfied. The result is that hundreds of real people die because that's a better story than, "And Everyone Lived Happily Ever After."

The "hard" version is Alan is playing with Evil Is Not a Toy and for the past couple of decades has been trying to write himself out and instead has turned his entire world into the X-Files by creating thousands of pages of backstory for Jessie, Quantum Break, the FBC, and whatever else he's done.

I admit, as a writer, I like the idea that Alan Wake is functionally omnipotent like John Candy in Delirious but his own subconscious/The Dark Presence prevents him from being able to use it for anything he doesn't think is genuinely well-written. It's the opposite of the Cabin in the Woods.

The Great Old Ones don't want schlock, they want quality storytelling.

I'm cool with:

• Alex Casey
• Jessie
• Alan Wake himself

All being fictional too with Alan Wake created by Thomas Zayne when he erased himself. Whether he's a Reincarnation or not is an interesting question as Alan has sort of written him back into existence after his suicide.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 4th 2023 at 10:45:19 AM

The main limitation on Alan's abilities is that the story he writes has to be really good. By which I mean, comprehensive.

IIRC, The Dark Presence dwells in narrative shortcuts. Thomas Zane discovered that the hard way when he tried to just slapdash Barbara back to life. He left it up to A Wizard Did It for how she came back, and so the Dark Presence filled in the gaps. In essence, the Dark Presence is The Wizard What Did It. Give it that inch, and it will gladly fill in the blanks.

So the story has to do the impossible and pull Alan out of the lake. But it also has to be comprehensive and thorough, to avoid letting the Dark Presence interpret Alan's writing in a way he didn't intend.

I like the implication whenever Alan Wake dies "in-game" that's just him realizing the story didn't work right and he needed to write the action better and more believably.

And yeah, Thomas wrote his girlfriend back but the better story to the DP was that she Came Back Wrong.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 4th 2023 at 12:52:28 PM

Sorry for interrupting the current conversation but do you guys think knowledge of Control will be important for this game? I've watched a few playthroughs of Alan Wake as well as Alan Wake's American Nightmare but I haven't touched Control and I know that's part of the franchise as well.

It's hard to say without playing II first but I'd guess it'd be limited to continuity nods. Control didn't require you to have knowledge of Alan Wake for example.

Edited by Shaoken on Jun 4th 2023 at 11:31:00 PM

I imagine that, "Spooky government agency" agents will probably show up.

But Jessie won't unless it's DLC.

I doubt it. Mostly because Control did (seemingly) nothing to actually further Alan Wake's plot. And... also did some things I don't agree with them doing with the character but that's a different tangent (I don't like Alan traumatizing Alice). But, ultimately, the DLC was kinda a plot cul-de-sac. It brought back a character we previously had delt done with, used them to terrorize the FBC, and then delt away with them again.

There's implication that it did something to assist Alan in some way, but it's very vague and unclear. Especially since it kinda seems like American Nightmare might have been retcon'd (Mr. Scratch is still around)?

I don't like the idea of Jesse being a creation of Alan because I feel like it completely undercuts her narrative, journey, and stakes. She goes through all this trauma in Ordinary because Alan wrote it that way. She loses Dylan because Alan wrote it that way. The Hiss kill so many people because Alan wrote it that way. Jesse succeeds not because of cleverness and ingenuity and general skill and growth but because Alan wrote it that way. Her coming into "taking Control" isn't because Jessie took control, but because Alan controlled her and wrote it that way.

And Alan could have written it differently in the ultimate conclusion of this.

It also creates this singularity of plot relevance that I don't feel serves Jesse's story or character much. If Alan created Jesse and put her through all this bs, why isn't he an antagonist? Creation vs. Creator. This is a tension that demands resolution and a further crossover that I don't particularly want.

It's kinda the same reason I don't like the idea of Thomas Zane writing Alan into existence and writing Alan... writing Alan. It removes Alan's agency from the situation and a creation and pawn on Thomas. At least when Alan is "writing it that way", it's in Alan's own story so he still has a level of agency.

The only way these powers work, I can find, that preserves agency and narrative tension is if "the writer" can write and control things, but cannot create whole-cloth. Or shouldn't. They are not God. They have to work with the people and things that already exist. And when they do create whole cloth, break rules, retcon, or otherwise play God, the Dark Presence fills the gaps with their influence.

Ergo, the better a writer you are and the less plot holes, narrative inconsistencies, and otherwise bad writing tropes you inject, the better the outcome. Zane resurrected Barbra outright and that doesn't work because resurrection isn't real and death is final. Ergo, Deus Ex Machina.

But even good narratives have necessity for bad writing. Why do cell phones never work in horror movies? Or everyone runs upstairs instead of out the back door? Why are the police utterly useless? Because that's how a horror story works.

And if he wants to do something to empower his narrative in some way, say, give himself the pages of the manuscript, he has to find a narratively compelling reason to have them besides "Alan found the pages". Thus Thomas is shown to be the one distributing them on the path.

It's why the Dark Presence controlling Alan but still being a threat and antagonist works; the villain is losing and getting frustrated because they're bound by the same narrative rules and Alan is, in a manner of speaking, too good of a writer to give them an opening edgewise.

I feel like there's a question to be asked if this narrative set up undercuts the player's agency in the story, but that's a deeper question. It's part of what I think really works in the DLC actually since Alan is at war with himself and that creator vs created tension still has stakes despite the set up.

To loop this back to Control, I don't think Alan created Jesse and set up the arc of Control or the AWE in Ordinary to plot his own escape. I think those things all happened of their own accord. I think the FBC genuinely caught a rampaging Hartman and investigated the AWE themselves. The only thing I think Alan did was use the opportunity created by these events to pinball the narrative into the factors he wanted. He couldn't create a player for the chess board, but he could guide someone to step onto the board.

I realize I'm rambling.

Edited by InkDagger on Jun 5th 2023 at 12:05:40 PM

The player doesn't have any agency at all in the story. It's a linear story. We aren't here to make choices and drive the plot; We're here to experience a story that someone else has written. We have as much agency in this plot as we do when watching Iron Man or reading The Lord of the Rings. That's just how linear storytelling works.

I don't think "Because that's what Alan wrote" undermines the characters' agency at all, any more than them being fictional in the first place does. All characters, every single one of them in every story ever written, are fictional elements created by a writer, capable only of doing what the writer wrote them to do. No character truly has free will.

There is no such thing as atheist fiction. In every fictional universe, the author is God.

The illusion of character choice is a tacit agreement between writer and audience to engage with the story as if these were real people making real choices, but everything is scripted and every character is merely playing their part in the grand narrative. Even in metanarratives where characters lash out against their creator, they can only do so because that's what they were written to do. The author's power is immutable.

It so happens that Alan Wake is such a metanarrative. Alan serves as an intermediary character. He exists on a layer between the true reality of our world and the fictional reality of Bright Falls. The power of the Dark Presence within the setting is that it confers upon him the almighty power of the author, such that he may shape the events of his reality while haunted by the influence of his eldritch editor.

The relationship between Alan and his "characters" is ultimately no different than the relationship between a true author and their characters. So I don't really see the argument that people like Jesse don't have true agency or whatever if Alan wrote them. They're still fictional characters either way.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 5th 2023 at 8:07:53 AM

Heck, if you wanted to you could probably read something into the dark presence being avatars of the actual writers of the game; creating the horror and conflict that Alan rages against and must work within the confines of

I mean, it did a lot. A lot of it was expected because there was supposed to be an Alan Wake 2. However, it did MASSIVE amounts to Retcon American Nightmare that I assumed would be canon but apparently isn't:

• Mr. Scratch is alive (and possibly pretending to be Thomas Zayne now)
• Thomas Zayne has a body now (or Mr. Scratch is impersonating him)
• Thomas Zayne has gained a body and is now a movie producer rather than a poet. Did Alan write him back into existence in a recursive narrative?
• Alan is still trapped in the Dark Place

Part of this is undoubtedly Remedy playing with the same themes as Bioshock and Metal Gear Solid 2, which is examining the medium of video games. Jesse and Alan are fictional characters in-universe and out of universe. However, that doesn't make their stories less important to them despite the fact they don't have free will. Also, do they have free will when not being written? Alan is the writer but he is a slave to the narrative's authenticity.

Actually, I'd argue it's this:

• Alan Wake = Sam Lake
• The Dark Presence = The Audience
• The Conflict = Satisfying the audience by torturing Alan

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 5th 2023 at 1:37:38 AM

x3

I mean... yes? I guess... but at that point, the concept of agency has no meaning at all and should never ever be discussed. It's pointless. Characters can't have agency at all.

That's stops... so much media discussion in it's tracks.

No, that's a dumb conversation. Because the reality is that good writing, even if an illusion within the construct of, yes, someone writing it, is still supposed to provide the illusion of choice and agency. Good characters make strong choices that affect the plot an narrative. We like when characters have agency and we lash out when characters are robbed of agency in stories. You can still speak of agency within the world of the narrative.

So, yes, you can validly question the legitimacy of Jesse's agency if she is just a fictional character of Alan's. And how that actively weakens her character arc if her "taking control" is just Alan controlling her to take control. It undermines everything of that moment. What in any way does it serves Jesse's arc?

All I meant by pointing out the player's agency was that, in context of the story, Alan isn't succeeding because of anything the player is actually doing. The Alan is succeeding because Alan dictates that they succeed and the player is kinda just there. Which is part of the agency of characters specifically in video game mediums; the player guides the characters through the obstacles. It was also only a question and a passing thought, not a condemnation or anything.

Yes, but I was also speaking as to what the DLC's story actually did. Sure, it retcon'd American Nightmare on a mechanical side but... it's not like an in-universe retcon or something? The DLC doesn't actually turn and address American Nightmare. It can be summed up as "I guess this is retcon'd because it doesn't make sense otherwise" and it's kinda defining something by a negative.

It was asked "What happened in the DLC?" and the answer is kinda a vague "Not much seemingly".

Most media isn't this metatextual. There is no way to analyze the story of Alan Wake from a purely character perspective, ignoring the creative elements in composing the story, because so much of the story is about the creative elements. Alan, the character, is a writer who authored (and is actively authoring) his own story.

And so, within the story, characters make their choices in accordance to what was written by Alan, in accordance to what was written by Sam Lake, Mikko Rautalahti, and Petri Järvilehto.

If it doesn't undermine a character's agency to be written by Sam Lake, why does it undermine their agency to be written by Alan Wake?

It is interesting that I don't remember Alan Wake playing that for horror on a level deeper than characters reading a page about something bad that will happen to them, or even particularly engaging with it, because it seems like the obvious path for a metanarrative horror story to go (In the Mouth of Madness did, for example). Probably because unlike Sutter Kane, Alan Wake was the sympathetic protagonist.

(I haven't gotten around to the Control DLC yet, though.)

Getting to meet her own creator and the internal struggle of dealing with the fact all her pain and suffering is possibly the work of a deranged writer. The thing is that Jessie beats the Hiss because she's strong enough to do so. Alan wrote her as strong enough to do so but she can't triumph unless she's strong enough to do so. There's no short cuts in the setting.

Because if there were, Alan wouldn't have gone through such utter hell to win in his two games.

There's also the element Alan doesn't control his imagination. The Dark Presence hasn't let him just write, "And Alan found a door to escape the Dark Place and reunited with his wife." It only lets him write stories that are terrifying and dark. He'll allow an Earn Your Happy Ending, possibly, but not a Happily Ever After.

I want more Alan/Control crossover because I'd be interested if Alan created Jessie because he's given up that he can get a happily ever after because he's realized he's such an unlikable Antihero that it's unearned.

Jessie is his daughter, effectively, and exists to be the hero that he can't be.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 5th 2023 at 4:24:11 AM