Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Moretti.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The EP mentioned updates. What updates?
Edited by ACW on Apr 3rd 2023 at 1:48:39 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
In regards to Admiral Rampart, while he did destroy all the cities of Kamino, the cloning facility in Season 1 is completely evacuated and all known Kaminoans are spared, including their leader. We don't actually see Kaminoans screaming in fear as their cities are being blown to pieces during the final montage, which really downgrades Rampart's vileness. Note it doesn't mean that Kaminoans weren't killed in the destruction, but the presentation makes Rampart look like just an average monstrous Imperial in a system full of monstrous Imperials.
Heinous just comes out barely too short for Imperial standards. And the fact he's completely overshadowed by Tarkin and Palpatine doesn't help in the matter. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Barb / Temporary Kylo
@ACW
It's not really...updates, it's just that there is slightly different dialogue in the outro's of both songs.
The First man
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
morerti, Ada, Copard
Conductor, Stationmaster, Monstrosity, Eddie, Jenkins, Buncle, Lee, Napoleon, Begi, Seichi, Allomere, Dathan, Mordred, Laszlo, Leah, Waakzaam, Lokai, Frieza, Black, Pellegrin, Maw, Ritter, Copard, Ramsay and Moretti
Kazsethil, Rampart, Fuxfell, Trout and Julio
Switching to Donnie, Pyro, Dancer and Bryce
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I'll give a to Julio but it sounds like some of the other ones might need a second look.
Can’t find out how to add the 1st and 3rd Brevon quotes. I do have one more though. It’s actually on the Knight of Cerebus quote page
Torque: The man who wants your Kingdom Stone isn't from around here either. He calls himself, Lord Brevon.
Lilac: Lord?
Torque: Well, he didn't get that name selling cookies. He's dangerous with a capital D. Brevon is the most powerful enemy we've ever faced. Hundreds of worlds destroyed, thousands of heroes killed or corrupted, enormous amounts of weapon energy stolen... and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Edited by SailorVenus372 on Apr 3rd 2023 at 11:19:55 AM
I’m plotting my schemes wherever I go! They’re perfect in every way…
Not the Eye
to Moretti
Switching to Donnie, Pyro and Dancer and abstain to Bryce
Adora, the High Priestess
Yeah. An easy yes for both Frieza and Goku Black.
"I just need one of you to come here to give your life to the sun god. It will be for the monkey city's glory."
Lies and Violence!
Yes to Copard, Ramsay, and Moretti. The quote sounds good, but personally lacks a bit of oomph, in my opinion. You could probably shorten it to start with "He's dangerous..."
So I'm probably not going to get to this for a while, but I felt I might as well ask now. There might be one more for Ninjago. I think I previously mentioned a guy named Clouse, who is absolutely bad enough save for one redeeming feature—his love for his pet snake, as he's shown grieving over its corpse.
Cut and dry, right? He had a pet he loved, he felt sad over its death, and then it's never brought up again, so the likelihood of that care ever getting invalidated seems nonexistent. Unless he ever returns as a multiversal threat, since the realm of the dead is explicitly another universe within that multiverse, but that's neither here nor there.
But that "never brought up again" part stuck in my mind when I remembered Clouse had access to essentially brief omnipotence once, only to waste it all on personal power. Long story short, Clouse finds a genie, Nadakhan, who can grant him any three wishes (save for love, harm upon others, or more wishes).
- Clouse's first wish is to get his magic spell book back, and once he does so he brags that the power it provides means he doesn't even need the remaining wishes. Said book immediately gets destroyed due to genies being assholes and Nadakhan twisting his words.
- The second wish is to restore his mortal form, as he muses he'll be unable to defeat the ninja as a ghost—he's a ghost at the moment, go with it.
- Which leads to the final wish, him wishing away the subsequent agonizing pain the process of turning mortal involves, and Nadakhan fulfilling the wish by stealing his soul. He's fun, I'll get to him on MB eventually.
Point is, he wastes the first two wishes on personal power, with the original intent to not even bother with a second or third wish. Not once does he bring up resurrection of his pet, even though resurrection is absolutely possible—Nadakhan himself brings back his dead lover in the finale... by allowing her consciousness to inhabit someone else's body, but he does it nonetheless.
My main concern is whether this is too much fridge logic to subvert the redeeming quality. Like, yeah, he doesn't bring the snake up, but just not mentioning it may not invalidate any care. It's also such a minor character that the show itself hasn't referenced it since its death. Should I really hold him forgetting it against him when the show has as well?
This was mainly spurned by reading in the cleanup thread about Dio not bringing back his mother when he got reality warping powers. I don't know Jojo, so there may be more context there to make that example a stronger invalidation of redeeming traits.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm...unsure.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Astolfo my Man
This is unexpected. I have no idea if Clouse can qualify for CM
I don't want to brag or anything but when it comes to being the worst, I'm always at the top!
I don’t know if this one was proposed before, if it was then I apologize for proposing it.
What’s the work?
Eden’s Zero is an science fantasy Anime/Manga series created by Hiro Mashima, the same author who did Fairy Tail and Rave Master. The main character is named Shiki Granbell and his crew are searching for a space goddess called Mother.
Who is he and what has he done?
Cure used his position as one of the Oración Seis Interstellar to create Deadend Crow a sadistic android titan responsible for committing genocide against humanity with one known incident called the Bloody Atmos Day Incident which resulted in over a million casualties, one of them being Holy where she watched her younger sister a child get killed and be striped and crucified along with other women where she was the only survivor.
He also reveals that he was the one who helped Drakken Joe and Poseidon Nero rise to power tracing back all their crimes within their respective arcs back to him while soiling the names of the decent members of the Oración Seis Galáctica Such as Elsie Crimson and Saintfire Nox. As for his reasons for doing this he claims that the universe needs balance claiming to be both good and evil, however his lack of empathy towards all the innocents who suffered with Holy calling him out on his claims. This makes him come off as an entirely evil being who is delusional who believes that he is above the concept of good and evil and imposing a twisted form of balance across the universe believing it justifies the existence of the Oración Seis Interstellar even if it means allowing millions to die from the villains he creates.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
He has no redeemable qualities, shows no guilt or remorse for all the people who suffered from his actions, and all his claims of being a well intentioned extremist are just him believing his own delusional ideology. He claimed that to justify the existence of the Oración Seis Interstellar there had to be evil in the universe examples being
Helping a a brutal crime lord steal the life energy from others to live for centuries and build a crime syndicate that extorts, blackmails, enslaves others.
Helping a tyrannical Emperor build his empire, and allow a despotic crown Prince who commits almost every single crime against humanity you can think of to become its heir and take temporary leadership.
And creating a giant mass murdering titan that killed and tortured millions of humans for kicks, something he refers to his magnum opus, one of its victims being one of his fellow Oración Seis Interstellar Holy who was tortured, crucified, and witnessing her little sister killed from the incident.
He even slandered the names of non villainous members Oración Seis Galactica members such as Elsie and Sainfire Nox just so there is still enemies to hunt down. None of the other characters believe in the crap he is going on about, claiming that good people wouldn’t preform the deeds he commits. It shows that nonone benefited from his actions his actions are, which are rightfully seen as engineered heroics that left countless people to suffer. His crimes rival those of other Complete Monsters in the series, both on a grand and personal scale. Overall he is just a glory hound who sacrifices innocent lives for his beliefs.
Final Verdict?
I say yes but I’ll leave that up to you guys.
@Clouse: Actually, I brought up a near-identical point with the recent Pathfinder villain. My point is here what it was there; not using a wish to resurrect a loved one doesn't automatically mean the grief is invalidated. You can be a power-craving psychopath and use your wishes for power-craving psychopathy and still mourn a loved one. They're not mutually exclusive.
With Dio, it's not just that he doesn't use the wish, it's that he openly states he loves nobody but himself after he becomes a vampire. Unless this Ninjago guy has a similar moment, I don't think he'd pass.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 4th 2023 at 8:36:01 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cure seems like a yes. What happens to him?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Not the Eye
to Cure.
Thing with Clouse is that he was perfectly capable of both getting power and ressurecting his loved one and yet when his spell book is back he openly states that he dosen’t need other wishes. I am unsure about him myself, but it is noticable.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Apr 4th 2023 at 7:48:06 AM
Astolfo my Man
to Cure.
Goku Black
cure.
Lies and Violence!
Gotcha, thanks for the input. No "I only love myself" that I can find, so I'll scrub him.
Cure sounds good.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Apr 4th 2023 at 10:53:11 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to Cure!
I have two more Crypt baddies I'm profoundly unsure of. Should I just neutral EP and see what everyone thinks?
Ultimate Moral Compass
I say go for it
Cure
Goku Black
Sure fire away.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Here are the Cultists. I talked them over more with Ravok, and ultimately I'm just gonna say both count in both versions. The line from the Conductor in Stupes vid isn't enough to be an issue.
Here's the writeups that I also talked on Ravok with.
*Music/TheStupendium:[[https://youtu.be/1ZTTnAG0sSk END OF THE LINE]]:The Conductor and the Stationmaster are a pair of gleefully sadistic cultists serving the horrifying train-entity 'Choo Choo Charles'. Having been part of the group that unwittingly released him, they struck a deal with the beast; They would kidnap locals on the island, and at 'tea time' [[FedToTheBeast would feed them to the train]]. They happily boast of their previous victims, including 'A vicar, a postman or 3' as they mock and torment their newest victim. Utterly selfish and cruel,[[HumansAreTheRealMonsters the duo manage to be as monsterous as Charles himself]].
*Music/DanBull:[[https://youtu.be/W_pTDB1vJW8 END OF THE LINE]]:The Conductor and the Stationmaster are a pair of gleefully sadistic cultists serving the horrifying train-entity 'Choo Choo Charles'. Having been part of the group that unwittingly released him, they struck a deal with the beast; They would kidnap locals on the island, and at 'tea time' [[FedToTheBeast would feed them to the train]]. They happily boast of their previous victims, including 'A vicar, a postman or 3' as they mock and torment their newest victim. Utterly selfish and cruel,[[HumansAreTheRealMonsters the duo manage to be as monsterous as Charles himself.]]
I made 2 writeups with the different links. Sense there are slightly different versions of the musice videos on each of their channels.(Not related to crimes or anything, just slightly different versions of the Outro)
Edited by Snoketrope on Apr 3rd 2023 at 10:20:28 AM
The First man