Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
@futuremoviewriter: I think the consensus was that if someone accidentally made a fifth EP people would ask him to delete it and post it again later. I agree that this can be discouraging, too, but allowing people to reserve a spot because the accidentally posted an EP isn’t a good solution either. As always, we should be understanding and respectful and explain the reason behind the 4 EP per page/24 hours limit to the newcomer in a way that doesn’t feel like we’re lecturing him.
@Forgo Light: You need at least five more ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
than ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
. Three days after the approval you post the writeup in this thread as well as add it to the draft page. The first post in this thread made by Tabs goes into more details about how this works. 
Since it's a new page and hour has passed since the last EP on the previous page, i decided to put this out to get this out of the way
What's the Work?
The Cursed Crusade is a hack and slash game from Kylotonn, released in 2011. The game is increddibly generic plot wise, as we follow the adventures of a Templar Denz de Bayle and his friend the Spanish mercenary Esteban Noviembre during the times of the Fourth Crusade. As they enslist in a Crusade and follows a holy mission to redeem themselves, and, in Denz de Bayle's case, find his missing father, they discover that the man, who leads the Crusade, has very unholy plans and intentions.
You can watch the full walkthrough here
My candidate is the Big Bad of the game - Boniface de Montferrat.
Who is Boniface de Montferrat?
A former friend of Denz de Bayle's father, Jean de Bayle, and a bearer of the Curse (sorta like damnation, that ensures that bearer ends up in Hell after death, although it grants demonic powers that they could use in life), like the protagonists, Boniface de Montferrat is a high ranking noble, who was charged with leading the Fourth Crusade. Introduced in the game by having his minions slaughter the population of the entire village, Boniface didn't appear again until his commander, Baudouin de Flandre, under his orders, layed siege of Biron Castle, killing all soldiers there with the help from the protagonists, after which protagonists mortally wounded the commander of Biron Castle, Jean de Bayle's friend Martin. Failing to force Martin to reveal the location of one of the holy artifacts, Boniface turned his attention to Denz, after he found out that he is the son of Jean de Bayle.
After Denz and Esteban enlisted in the Fourth Crusade, Boniface led the army to conquer Zara, a Croatian harbor city, in an effort to pay off the Crusaders' debt to Venice, since they are unable to properly pay for their ships, which were supposed to carry them to Jerusalem. Killing many soldiers there, Boniface found another holy relic that he sought. Afterwards, helping Alexius IV retake Constantinople from his uncle Alexius III and rescue his father, King Issac II, in exchange for paying the Venetians, Boniface led the army to ravage and sack the city, when Murzuphle killed Alexius and Issac, since this means they won't be payed anymore. Having his soldiers freely slaughter civilians and steal the treasures, Boniface tries to kill the heroes, when they refused to hand him over the last holy artifact that he needed.
Afterwards, stalking them, and managing to retrieve the artifacts, Boniface reveals that he plans to use them to summon an army of demons from Hell to Earth and have them devastate the lands, so he could conquer the world. Painfully transforming the Grecian captain of the guard, Lente, into a large demon, and having him crush Princess Theodora to death, Boniface leaves, ordering transformed Lente to kill the heroes. After his initial attempt to summon a demon army was foiled, Boniface flees and starts experiments with opening a gate to Hell in Krak de Chevalier in Syria, impaling a person with a holy relic, leaving him in a state of constant agony, begging for death, as undead soldiers filled the castle. As Denz and Esteban arrive there, Boniface was long gone, with them closing the portal to Hell and destroying the undead.
In Cairo, in his demonic form, Boniface tracked down and confronted Jean de Bayle, preparing to fight him, as the game ends on a cliffhanger, and as far as i'm aware, sequel was never released.
Redeeming Qualities?
None. Even his partnership with his second in command Baudouin de Flandre is rather pragmatic, with none apparent geniune friendship, as while Baudouin is rather loyal to Boniface, Boniface only uses him as a means to an end and a useful minion, not caring about him at all and leaving by himself, with no thoughts about Baudouin and not caring or remembering him since.
Heinousness?
Big Bad, sets it. While we hear a couple stuff about people burning down villages, Boniface is the one behind all onscreen crimes in the game, with him having his soldiers slaughter a peaceful village, leading the Crusade in several wars and having his soldiers ravage and pillage a large city, with his plans of summoning demons to Earth openly stated to leave a lot of devastations across the land. Plus a lot of his Kick the Dog moments, like needlessly killing Princess Theodora by having her former protector be transformed into a demon and kill her, adds a bit of personal cruelty to him.
Conclusion?
What do you think?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 16th 2023 at 1:44:05 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Guys, going forward, can we please try and clear the backlog first?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Well I mean. To go with that. How about something actually from that time. Was planning to do this a bit later but we see to be more freeish space now. So why not?
What's the work?
The School for Good and Evil (2022) is an adaptation of the YA book of the same name that came out during the lockdown here. It tells of the story of two girls (Agatha) and Sophie who get sent to a magical school where the children of heroes and villains from fairy tales live. It's a pretty lose adaptation of the book series which I have not read so I don't know of this guy counts their too. So this is just a film EP.
'Who is Rafal?'
Rafal along with his twin brother was the founder for the school of good and evil. Rafal was in charge of the Nevers (the fairy tale villains) while his brother Raval was in charge of the Evers (the fairy tale heroes). Their was peace between the brothers for centuries but Rafal eventually became power hungry and turned on and killed his brother Raval using Blood Magic. Rafal than impersonated Raval and became the headmaster of the schools.
For centuries, Rafal secretly twists the forces of good into becoming weaker and more complacent. While running the Academy as a nightmare show with kids who fail the tests transformed against their will into objects or monsters to run the school better. The transformations are both irreversible and fatal if undone. For some examples we see:
- A school of wishing fish is actually a young girl who's been trapped like this. Agatha undoes his spell by wishing her to be free hit she passes away right afterwards
- A friend of Agathas gets turned into a giant bird monster which ends up slayed.
And he's done this for centuries.
Anyway in order to gain ultimate power, Rafal requires the true loves kiss of pure evil. Which is a kiss between two figures of pure evil. To do this he's been kidnapped the occaiaonl student to test if their susceptible but to no avail till Sophie is brought in.
He begins a campaign to corrupt her to his side, playing on her feelings to turn her against her friend Agatha. Rafal convinced her to help get rid of the schools university professors and turn them into immobilized dolls as they start a conflict between the schools for good and evil.
Rafal reveals at the climax that he intends to kill everyone at both academies so he can take out the competition and build an empire in his own image and spread pure evil across the world. Sophie turns on him as this would lead to the deaths of her friends and ends up taking a sword attack meant for Agatha. This act of self sacrifice reverses the effect of ye kiss as it's the ultimate act of good. Rafal is slain in battle by Agatha wielding Excalibur who gets help from Sophie and hence ending his reign of evil once and for all.
'Redeeming qualities?
Nah. He has no remorse for killing his brother. Blood magic is corrupting to it's user but Rafal knew that before he took it and still went through with it. And he's just manipulating Sophie as he needs her for his plans, he views everyone as expandable (he does give a Big "NO!" when she self sacrifices...because that means his plans will get reversed and his powers taken away. Like even as she lays dying he doesn't care and is more focused on his lost abilities ) Guy is a self admitted card carrying villain with no real redeeming qualities.
Heinous standard ?'
Uh his main plan is just a generic cover the world in darkness plan (I'm sorry "spread true evil through the world"). But the thing that pushes me towards him keeping is how he got their. He's run the Academy as a horrible place for centuries with death and horrible transformations for the students (and we see way more than enough). He killed his own brother in cold blood. Kidnaps kids and indoctirines them into the Academy. And finally his plan is to wipe out both sides so he can take over completely. A really nice mix of crimes here for the equivalent of a PG 13 fantasy film. So uh pass says I.
Conclusion?
I say keep as my first proposal back. First CM for actor Kit Young and director Paul Feig? And Second Cm for Laurence Fishburne? Any questions? Please ask as I am prepared to answer them?
Edited by miraculous on Jan 16th 2023 at 3:07:10 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The MILF Virus
Ah is it alright I go next? It's my only candidate that was in the backlog
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Goku Black
Sure. Sounds fine
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Edited by ACW on Jan 18th 2023 at 5:57:48 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The MILF Virus
So with the CM thread back, I wanted to talk
What is the setting?
Who is Shide?
Shide is the seemingly muscle and right-hand of Haine, the leader of the Shadows trying to take over the island. As her personal brute, Shide is a brutal individual who'll kill anyone who gets in the way of his and Haine's goals with painful and sadistic means, both mentally and physically as Shinpei is force to see many times in the timelines he failed to stop them. However it is quickly shown that Shide is the real is the true mastermind behind their actions and is using Haine as a pawn for his own goals.
Later to be revealed to be actually Masahito Karikiri, the island's local priest, Shide has his own destructive plans for self grandeur. Having actually been around when Haine first arrived in the island via a meteorite over 300 years ago, Masashito took advantage of the foreign entity and used her abilities over shadows to make himself seemingly immortal. Using her childlike naivety, he tricked her into getting pregnant with his own descendants before using her ability to transfer his personality to them. His plan being to fulfill his curiosity of seeing the world end by prolonging his life in this process.
However his goal was not to be because it turns out there was a limited amount of times Masashito could do this process and by the events of the manga, Haine has weaken significantly because of this process. Realizing he won't see the world end like this, he decided to bring the end himself, liking himself as a final boss in a JRPG, masterminding the shadow invasions that's the main conflict of the story.
How bad is he and what potential disqualifying qualities does he have?
A mass murderer who lead the shadows to kill countless people from children to entire families, all in a bid to power Hainu to start a ritual with the express purpose of destroying the island before destroying the world all for his twisted power trip of wanting to see the end of humanity. And he does this by psychologically gaslighting the childlike Hainu, even impregnating her to make him his new bodies and before using her a living battery when he gets cornered.
Now when it comes to disqualifying factors, the biggest one potentially is his possible love for his son 300 years ago who he called out in worry when he got accidentally killed by Hainu, and even for Hainu herself who he has a few cute moments of bonding, such as cooking for her and her shadow family with a cute apron before ambushing the heroes in a family session of murder. However all of these potentially redeeming factors are later proven wrong, when Shibe used Hainu as a living battery when she no longer became of use to him, and later when Shinpei and Ushio tried to appeal to his humanity with his past like his son and Hainu, Shide just laughs it off and declares the past no longer means anything to him, showing he no longer care for his deceased son.
In truth he loves nobody but his own self-grandeu showing no regret. Well except Final Fantasy VII, but he is still gonna destroy the world before the remake came out which he does admit he is disappointed with.
My Opinion:
I say he keeps and is one of the more twisted example I've seen in a while.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Jan 16th 2023 at 7:14:52 PM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Goku Black
Anyway reading.
Can I get a response on Aladuaan's birds?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Not the Eye
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
actually post is for king Herod.
The MILF Virus
Well in the final battle Shinpei and Ushio are able to defeat him after he went to afterlife/ border between life and death, sending a death signal to Masashito's real body killing him. The duo then went to the past where Hainu first appeared to give her a Mercy Kill so in the new timeline, Masashito never had a chance to get her power and as such didn't have the chance to abuse her power, dying naturally this time 300 years ago.
EDIT: Just wanted to add one last thing upon Shide/Masashito, one of his favorite sadistic pleasures is forcing love ones to witness their friends and family getting consumed by Hainu and hearing her describe the taste, mind you Hainu does it out of the suggestion of Shide.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Jan 16th 2023 at 7:29:32 PM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Goku Black
Might be a good idea
Edit: Yes I meant Herod. Why did I say Nero? I know Nero is played for laughs in this show from past discussion.
Edited by miraculous on Jan 16th 2023 at 3:21:10 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, I remember Scraggle saying Nero didn't count because he's not taken seriously enough.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Not the Eye
We could have voting time noted in the pending post.
I have considered traying Nero. While there is some humor to him is not super prevalent. Decided against it since he is still more of a Joke than Nihilus and Herod (alought both of them have small biti of humor to them).
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Not a bad idea; I've updated the pending post to do that.
Question though: What exactly is Rafal supposed to do? I mean, yeah, he probably counts, but isn't he, like, in charge of the evil or something?
Edited by ACW on Jan 16th 2023 at 7:49:20 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Am I good to get my first EP out?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Would also like an answer on Alauddin. I recall the villain from the third of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movies was rejected for also stopping to save his pet birds.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Already 4 on this page.
Though while waiting, mind adding your Darkonda rewrite from the Cleanup thread to the Drafts?
Edited by ACW on Jan 16th 2023 at 8:23:56 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Literally just did bud
EDIT: In the pending post ACW, might be good to link the EP as well?
Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 16th 2023 at 1:26:15 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, might not be a bad idea. I may do that later.
EDIT: Done.
Edited by ACW on Jan 16th 2023 at 8:33:30 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
That's a good idea, I'll steal it for MB when I've got more energy.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I also rearranged the EPs by when voting can start (also, this is 50, so Wet, you can do that EP whenever).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Happy late chrismas to everybody who celebrates it. And happy holidays to all the rest.
What is the work?
The Story Keepers is 13 episode cartoon produced Zonervan and running from 1995 to 1997. Taking place in year 64.A.D after the great fire of Rome, in this series caused by emperor Nero, who placed the blame on the Christians and launched The Purge with the goal of completely extreminating them. Series follows adventures of 4 kids who got separate from theyr parents during the fire- Anna, Cyrus, Justin and Marcus- who are taken in by jewish baker Ben and his wife Helena, with Ben being secret leader of the Christian sect. Every episode feathure several stories of jesus’s life or some of his parables.
Who is King Herod? What has he done?
The episode 6 “starlight escape” sees family and teenage zelot zakkari travel outside Rome on the Christian meeting because Rome is getting to dangerous. While on road Ben tells kids story of the birth of Jesus.
King Herod was king of israel. A paranoid and short-tempered man, when the 3 wiseman came to him with news of the birth of the new king of jews Herod made a deal, when they find the child they will come to him and tell him where child is oestibly so he could give his respects. Luckily wisemen were warned by angels and when they found baby Jesus the never came back to Jerusalem. Nevertheles Heron found out that child is in Bethlehem and decided if he cannot find new king he will just have every male child in Bethlehem under age of 2 killed. While Jesus and his parents survive thank to prophetic dream his father had, other children of Bethlehem weren’t so lucky.
Mitigating factors?
There is a joke in his first apperance where he completely unprovoked goes on the rant about how SOMEBODY is trying to steal his throne to confusion of his court, only for humor to dissapear as Ben makes clear that not even his wife and family were safe from his wrath.
Heinous standard?
This series does have hefty standard with Nero and Nihilus. Former burning down Rome so he could launc a purge agains the Cristians and latter being The Heavy for him. That being said they are main villains of the series with their presence across all episodes, Herod on other hand is in just one episode in around 7 minute story. As nasty as Nero and Nihilus are neither of them deliberately went for city wide infanticide. And for anybody worried about censores don’t be show dosen’t tiptoe around Herod’s intent and there is even brief scene of Josep and Mary overloking Bethlehem as cries of the mothers are heard.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jan 16th 2023 at 2:06:21 AM