Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
After much thinking about Wonka... I remember I made an EP for Mr. Burns for Mr Burns: A Post-Electric Play and how that EP was shot down because, despite the horrific imagery of a nuclear holocaust and the fact most of the Simpsons died horrible deaths at the hands of Mr. Burns, it was ultimately a joke of, as one troper puts it, "a dead-serious butchering" of a comedic sitcom that is the Simpsons.
Wonka is certainly horrifying in that animation short... but the whole premise is a dark parody. Like, take the Internet joke of Wonka being an Evil Colonialist and make it extra horrifying just for the absurd nature of it.
It's no different from this Robot Chicken skit.
So ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Wonka.
Edited by Shadao on Apr 7th 2024 at 6:47:58 AM
The Emperor of Evil!
Robot Chicken is vastly different in tone compared to Avocado, Robot Chicken are clearly joking about it no better than Meat Canyon does which this animation doesn't. I don't think we can just assume this is on the same level just because other people joked about it.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I feel like that's just assuming bad faith when they're trying to come up with a counterargument, no one is trying to find a loophole here.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Apr 7th 2024 at 10:04:11 AM
Yes to Gaunt but even if alone the short might not be comic, nothing is alleviating my concern this is meant to be a dark prequel to the 70s film as "Wonka is a slaver" has been a thing for decades and not without reason. The character acting differently in a setting where they're gathering slaves vs. the role he plays in the film aren't sufficient for me to feel this is meant to be a standalone new setting and I'm going to maintain my no.
Woagh
I'm just gonna be blunt: Nearly all of the counters to the "Wonka might have the same redeeeming qualities" is "But he's so evil". From what i can tell nothing is actually countering that he might still care for Charlie even if he acts evil, we've cut much more disgusting characters for nonetheless having redeeming qualities.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Barb / Temporary Kylo
The issue was more, IMO 'Is it fair to assume the movie must happen, exactly as it does, complete with Wonka's redeeming qualities and characterization. When the characterization of Wonka is completely different here?'. There is a lot that does fit with the original film in it's style, but to me personally it felt like a bit of a technicality.
I have seen valid concerns over the prequel thing and such, it's perfectly, completely valid to downvote him based on that. But I feel like accusing people who support of him of just being oblivious to the fact that a character can be really evil and have redeeming qualities is a bit rude.
Edited by Snoketrope on Apr 7th 2024 at 7:07:02 AM
The First man
I don't think it's bad faith, it does beg a broader question because with such a short video people will inevitably be left wondering if it's meant to be a companion or standalone. I do happen to fall in the former camp myself, there's been good reasoning as to why we feel this could just be meant to be a dark prequel short and the issue with very terrible villains being argued as keeps despite nagging redeeming qualities has been one this thread's faced before. I encourage everyone to read the discussion and vote as they will but kindly don't claim Dood's (good faith) argument is one in bad faith, that just takes away a good point of legitimate discussion and makes the process more difficult to have an open conversation.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yeah I really don't think accusing people of making bad faith arguments is okay. Look I get where everyone on both sides are coming from and don't think anyone is making bad faith arguments either way.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 7th 2024 at 9:10:47 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lizzid people!
Ultimately, yeah. Both sides have good points.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I think both sides make fine points too and again, I think it's a perfectly fine to downvote. I just felt the notion that people only upvoted him because 'so evil' was mischaracterizing people who felt he kept. If I misunderstood Dood's comment I do apologize on that front.
The First man
Mr. Burns was not played as a joke when I saw that play in college. But that doesn't change the fact that the whole premise is played for the absurdity. I've looked at Avocado's list of works, and the general consensus I got is absurd dark parodies. Like what if Mario was rated R? Or what would the Villagers in Minecraft be like if we make them realistic and yet still keep players' method of using them to farm Golems.
If you put the Wonka video next to every other Avocado video, you'll notice a consistent theme with all of them. Dark Fic with absurd concepts that is both horrifying when watching and yet ridiculous via premise. That Wonka video isn't really something of an outlier to this creator's work. And that's something we must keep in mind of.
Edited by Shadao on Apr 7th 2024 at 7:15:05 AM
Showtime!
Changing to an abstain on Wonka mostly because i'm kind of sick of talking about it
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
The Emperor of Evil!
I grew disinterested with Wonka at this point, so I ain't tallying anymore. I got another better candidate if Wonka goes or not. If anyone wants to take over the tally, go ahead.
I'm working on the proposal right now as we speak.
EDIT: Nevermind, my candidate is a Wait-And-See atm.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Apr 7th 2024 at 11:03:23 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Advacato is a bit weird. Sometimes the creator does things that are clearly supposed to be darkly comedic, and other times something where there's no real 'joke' and goes for pure grit.
That will be my last note, I'll think. Imma see if I can finish an effort post I was working on for a while.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Good luck power!
Edited by Snoketrope on Apr 7th 2024 at 7:27:01 AM
The First man
King Kandy Kane
I'm gonna abstain on Wonka. I don't see the whole "dark parody angle" to the short. Hell, the whole premise of "Willy Wonka as an Evil Colonialist", for me, weirdly makes sense. I'm honestly more concerned about whether to treat this like it were a fan-made prequel or as its own stand-alone fanmade short. Going with the former, he'd be a but going with the latter, he'd be a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
.
Gaunt
Even with all that said, I’m still reaffirming to Wonka.
This has gotta be one of the most intense and divisive discussions we’ve had for a candidate in a while.
Edited by Fireball246 on Apr 7th 2024 at 8:47:22 AM
Lies and Violence!
Yes to Gaunt. Too tired to read through the Wonka discussion.
What's the work?
DCeased is DC's take on a zombie apocalypse ravaging the superhero world. Basically, Darkseid merges a fragment of the Anti-Life Equation held in the hero Cyborg with death, creating a new techno-organic virus that makes its way to earth and infects everyone it can.
Our Big Bad and the first of two?
What is the Anti-Life Equation?
Hear me out with this.
When Anti-Life is unleashed upon the world by Darkseid's arrogance, it immediately infects the New God and has him destroy Apokolips, while hitching a ride on Cyborg back to Earth when he's teleported home. From there, it enters the internet and begins infecting everyone it can through whatever screens are available, quickly covering the globe. People begin trying to tear out their own eyes to remove the Anti-Life, but the infection takes hold quickly and reduces them into mindless zombies—not dead but not alive either. They are the Blighted Ones, the Anti-Living.
The Anti-Living hordes proceed to ravage the world, aiming to either spread their virus through infected blood or just kill everything period. An infected Black Adam leads an army to slaughter whatever remnants of humanity it can find. Things continue to get worse until two massive ships full of millions of survivors attempt to leave for a new planet. An infected Superman is sent to stop these ships, but is confronted by the Green Lantern Corp... where, instead of trying to fight his way through, he heads towards the sun to begin draining it of energy, intent on slowly plunging the solar system into icy death over the course of several years.
By this point, it's clear there's a mind at work here. And so, as survivors flee the planet, and those that remain hide in the sanctuaries established by powerhouses like Poison Ivy, Cyborg confronts one of the Anti-Living with the Lasso of Truth. Sure enough, there is an intelligence. A voice: "You will cease to exist. You will fall... We are death. Nothing can stop death... Life is fleeting. That is the only truth. Death is forever."
Five years in the future, a cure is discovered and Earth is saved, with Superman being cured before he can finish draining the sun. Unfortunately, Darkseid is still out there, and Anti-Life has been using him to collect as many villains and doomsday weapons as it can add to its arsenal: the New Gods, Supergirl, Warworld, Mr. Mxyzptlk. The infected Darkseid even gains control of the Yellow Lanterns, proudly remarking "Everything fears the end of life." With this massive army, it begins the work of total genocide of everything in the cosmos. A massive battle erupts between the unliving and the combined might of Earth and the Green Lantern Corps, during which Brainiac is infected and begins smashing all his collected cities. But the bottled city of Kandor is freed, Alfred motherfucking Pennyworth becomes the Spectre, and Cyborg manages to take control of Brainiac while he's infected, giving him insight into how to stop the blight.
Around this time, the truth of Anti-Life is revealed. It is no mere equation, but the primordial personification of darkness itself, Erebos, who had already ended one universe through similar means long ago. After curing most of the army—even Darkseid—the heroes decide to take the fight to the malevolent god in his pocket dimension, piloting Warworld inside the massive being while the likes of Darkseid and Ares keep it distracted. Damian Wayne sacrifices himself to combine the Anti-Life Equation with its opposite, the Life Equation, while inside Erebos. The god tries to bargain for its life, but that obviously doesn't work, and Damian sets off a massive explosion that kills both of them, birthing a new universe as Anti-Life meets its deserved end.
Mitigating factors?
Erebos is described as the personification of darkness and Anti-Life, but that's never been much of an issue for agency in DC. As far as I could find, there isn't anything outright saying it's incapable of straying from its purpose of spreading Anti-Life, so it should be fine. Especially when Dark Crisis was released around this time, reintroducing the actual personification of darkness, the aptly named Great Darkness, and reaffirming that it's pretty chill, all things considered—it also thinks life is icky, but it doesn't really care for wiping it all away and would prefer to just be left alone, thank you very much.
Plus, Erebos/Anti-Life has the gall to beg for its own life and try to convince Damian not to sacrifice himself, so clearly it's capable of compromising/making an exception for itself.
No issues with heinousness, universal genocide tends to make one the worst.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Apr 7th 2024 at 12:16:28 PM
to the Anti-life equation, weird one to have
Hello, have a writeup, goodnight!
- The Deptford Trilogy, by Robertson Davies: "Willard the Wizard" is a Stage Magician and secretly a drug-addicted predator who uses his job to regularly assault young boys. Taking special interest in little Paul Dempster, Willard kidnaps and rapes him on a weekly basis for years, keeping Paul by terrorizing and lying to the boy, traumatizing him for life.
The Emperor of Evil!
to Erebos, the Anti-Life Equation.
Alright thankfully, The Cosmic Collector provided yet another candidate as the one I had planned turns out to be part of a Two-Parter so I'll wait on him until Part 2 is made. This one however, I can safely do.
What's The Work?
What if Mace Windu Arrested Palpatine with Anakin in Revenge of the Sith? as the title explains, is a What If? by Star Wars Theory on if Mace Windu follows Anakin's suggestion of arresting Palpatine rather than simply killing him. Palpatine is stood in trial for his crimes in the Clone Wars etc. Halfway through this way, it could end in two ways which I'll get into in a minute.
What Has Palpatine Done?
- He brutally murders three Jedi masters, such as decapitating one Jedi and running his lightsaber through the skull of another. Palpatine tries to escape, calling for the guards for help. This is in fact a trick as he was making a recording to make it look like he's the one being attacked so the Jedis would look bad.
- As being a Sith Lord was no crime in the modern day and the fact the court do not believe he was responsible for any attempts at Padme's life, Palpatine successfully frames the Jedis as bad guys and has the court turn on them. Palpatine has succeeded and became the Emperor and corrupts Anakin to his side.
- So, the story could continue in two ways that can be choose either way by the viewer so I'll go over this one. In one ending Palpatine initiate Order 66 to wipe out the Jedis even if there's no need to due to the public no longer trusting the Jedi. And the other, Anakin is overcome by his love for Padme, and the fact he has no reason to carry out the genocide and slaughter of the children. Palpatine would be enraged over the fact Anakin is being independent of his own, and viciously attacks a pregnant Padme using Force Lightning killing their unborn children and Padme.
- As Palpatine is killed by a pissed off Anakin, Anakin became what Palpatine wants him to be: A cruel, ruthless Evil Overlord wreaking havoc across the galaxy
Mitigating Factor
Heinous Standards
Brutally kills three Jedis, tries to initiate Order 66 even when they're no longer a threat, and murders Padme and her unborn children in one ending just because Anakin no longer wants to be his pawn. Even ends up turning Anakin into an evil tyrant through this, even at the cost of his life.
Final Verdict
Personally say to my first Palpatine.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Apr 7th 2024 at 12:31:27 PM
for the Anti-Life Equation and Sheev.
Edited by TurlesTheVegan on Apr 7th 2024 at 12:20:01 PM
....Phenomenal
for Gaunt, Anti-Life, and another Palps.
And personally I'm fine keeping my upvote for Wonka, since unless I'm missing something, it's pretty much an animated Dark Fic? And we have plenty of keepers from those. Using the resemblance to the well-known canonical character while being completely, horribly out-of-character is part of what's supposed to make it shocking.
There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Palpatine and the Anti-Life Equation
I've got a re-evaluation of a candidate I tried a few years ago, but after talking it over with some folks I've decided is worth another shot with some clarifications from the screenplay and interviews with the creator in mind. I'll be using chunks of my old EP for this:
What's the work?
The VVitch is a terrific horror/period film directed by rising star of the genre Robert Eggers. We follow a family of Puritans in the 1600s, primarily the eldest teenaged daughter Thomasin, as they are banished from their colony and forced to make a home out in the middle of an isolated forest...where strange things are afoot and begin haunting and tormenting the family in the form of the titular Witch(es).
But the greatest threat of all is the baaaaaaad billy goat occupying their farm right outside!
Who is Black Phillip? What has he done?
- Black Phillip, Black Phillip, a crown grows on his head,
Black Phillip, Black Phillip, to nanny queen is wed.
Black Phillip, Black Phillip, king of sky and land,
Black Phillip, Black Phillip, king of sea and sand.
We are ye servants, we are ye men,
Black Phillip eats the lion, from the lion's den.
- Black Phillip is a sleek, black billy goat occupying the family's farm, who is eventually revealed to be the Devil himself, masterminding the entire story to tempt Thomasin into his witches' coven.
- With the coven of witches in the woods working with Black Phillip, the witches go about kidnapping, disemboweling and grinding up the infant Samuel to use his remains as a spell for flight. They further assault and violate the boy Caleb, sending him back to his family long enough for him to agonizingly die before them while mocking their Puritanical beliefs in a possessed haze.
- Whispering to the two twin siblings Jonas and Mercy in secret—causing them to sing his praises as "king Black Phillip"—Black Phillip implores them to sow seeds of hate and doubt in the family, mainly in the form of accusing Thomasin of being a witch who is behind Samuel and Caleb's deaths.
- Eventually, the witches kidnap Jonas and Mercy themselves—the kids never seen again—and Black Phillip comes to mother Katherine in a vision of her dead children to torment her. Black Phillip later gores the father William as Thomasin watches, then sits back and observes as Katherine goes insane from the trauma she has been put through and tries to kill Thomasin, blaming her for the horrors and resulting in Katherine's own demise.
- Then approached by a traumatized Thomasin who begs the goat to speak to her as she has grown more and more suspicious of his nature, Black Phillip finally utters his first, terrifying lines in what many consider to be the best part of the film:
Black Phillip: What dost thou want?
Thomasin: What canst thou offer?
Phillip: Wouldst thou like the taste of butter? A pretty dress? Wouldst thou like to live deliciously? Wouldst thou like to see the world? - Appearing then to Thomasin as a tall, well-dressed cavalier offering her a book, Black Phillip has the teen unclothe for him and orders her to sign her name in it as he begins running his hands over her, responding to her claims that she can't write her name by whispering "I will guide thy hand."
- Black Phillip then ends the film leading Thomasin to his witch coven where they perform a ritual, the lot of them levitating high in the sky as Black Phillip watches, Thomasin embracing her status as a witch and laughing in a combination of glee and madness at her newfound freedom...
Mitigating features?
None at all, the best you can say for ol' Scratch is that he doesn't have a tremendous amount of screentime or character, but it's there and it's enough...from the fact that he was using the twins to sing his praises and cause discord in the family to his final talk with Thomasin where he goes full Faux Affably Evil, he's a manipulative temptor as usual for Satan. Even in his goat form, he has body language cues that indicate his villainy throughout the film—notably when he gores William, then literally stands up and hops on two legs in a triumphant, terrifying pose.
There's some fan interpretations that Thomasin's ending is "empowering" and a "freedom" from Puritanism, and while said interpretations are interesting, it's definitely not portrayed so clearly nor "empowering" in the film nor screenplay, where she is 13 years old and Black Phillip makes her undress "child-like" before him while he caresses her. There is no ambiguity in the film itself here: Black Phillip is Satan, he tortures and wipes out a family, and he corrupts a crying, traumatized Thomasin into joining a coven of baby-killers, with it being implied this is the routine behavior for his "recruitments."
Heinousness?
An issue that came up when I did him last time was it being questionable how much of the plot Black Phillip is influencing, but the screenplay and various subtle cues throughout the film completely indicate Black Phillip's hand in the movie's plot. He definitely doesn't only show up at the end to tempt Thomasin, he appears before Katherine earlier to taunt her in the form of her kids (notably mentioning his "book" to her, which he later uses to seal Thomasin's Deal with the Devil) and you clearly see Black Phillip exhibiting creepy behavior throughout that is fully contextualized at the end as being Satan showing his true colors.
Furthermore? Black Phillip creates the witches with his "book", this is absolutely an unambiguous truth, and we see by the end that he is their overseer. Everything they do is on his head. The Witches throughout the film butcher a baby (with this indicated as being regular behavior for them); sexually assault and leave Caleb at death's door; and kidnap Jonas and Mercy for an Uncertain Doom. Black Phillip himself meanwhile gores William, sows discourse throughout the family, drives Katherine mad, and then tempts a broken Thomasin into joining the coven. Plenty bad, and made plenty clear that he's the head honcho who has done similar before.
Final Verdict?
Saying Keep, stronger now than back then.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Lies and Violence!
Blanking for next page. Aye to Palps and Black Philip.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Apr 7th 2024 at 12:32:13 PM
to Black Phil
Yes to Gaunt
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.