Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Yeah, I'm not familiar with Legacy, but Krayt becoming an Omnicidal Maniac in response to Order 66 doesn't seem mitigating to me.
The Ultimate Lifeform
Also, I swore that in Legacy Krayt himself executed his own Order 66 on a future incarnation of the Jedi, and showed exactly zero sadness over it, long after he went through Order 66 himself.
Edited by ForgoLight on Apr 18th 2024 at 10:01:51 AM
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
To be a Master
Krayt decided to bring back the Sith to the forefront after they went extinct with Palpatine (and Lumiya with Darth Caedus but that's a long story), created a new Sith Empire that went a genocidal war against the Jedi Order (who were at least smart enough to simply go into hiding in guerrilla warfare), and was responsible for mass scale genocide, including one involving Mon Calamari.
Freudian Excuse? The only excuse is here is bringing back the Sith from extinction. The very same Sith that initiated Order 66.
He's still a monster.
Any more thoughts on merging Frisk and Chara’s writeups? If I get enough ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
votes, I’ll add it to the drafts.
I haven't read the works in which Darth Krayt appears, but aside from Order 66, wasn't he also captured and brutally tortured and experimented on by the Yuuzhan Vong for an extended period of time? Said tortures include cutting off parts of his body and replacing them with new ones. And he was placed by the Yuuzhan Vong in something called the "Embrace of Pain" which is essentially a torture device. This is the description of the Embrace of Pain from the Star Wars wiki:
Edited by WatTambor on Apr 19th 2024 at 1:06:05 PM
Not the Eye
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I haven’t read much of where Krayt appears either, but I’m pretty sure that all happened after he already went bad.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
to the Frisk and Chara rewrites
Captain of USS Bajor
I actually have read volume I: the Vong stuff happened before he went full Sith, but after he spent some time as a warlord among his native Sand People and led an uprising against the offworlder colonists that ended in Obi-Wan humiliating him, and then stumbled across the Sith homeworld Korriban while working as a Bounty Hunter. He was already edging on the dark side, but didn't go all the way off the deep end and try to recreate the ancient Sith Empire—not the Banite Sith Order that had done Order 66, but more like the KOTOR/SWTOR-era Sith (in fact Darth Bane's holocron despised him and considered him a pathetic weakling)—until way later after his run-in with the Vong.
Essentially what I'm getting here is that the argument in favor of Krayt being a CM is that Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse on the grounds he's the only significant Order 66 survivor in Legends who did anything remotely like this.
Edited by StarSword on Apr 19th 2024 at 7:43:42 AM
Hi! :3
Quick question: Did Wonka got approved as CM ?
Not the Eye
Ultimately no.
Is his torture at the hands of the Yuuzhan Vong presented as a reason for the crimes that are described in his CM entry? Because if that's the case, I am leaning towards cutting him.
Edited by WatTambor on Apr 19th 2024 at 3:24:48 PM
Captain of USS Bajor
They contributed to his fall to the dark side but I don't remember by how much. I'll dig up my copy and get back to you on that.
I also lean to cut Krayt, he has too many ambiguous back-and-forth elements to solidly fit into complete monster.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Should we add a link to DC Series to Wonder Woman since we recently added the keeper from the Wonder Woman pilot?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
I’d support that
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Good idea. Done.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Keep Krayt imo.
He got tortured by the Yuuzhan Vong and embraced the Dark Side to defend himself against them with Vergere as The Corrupter.
But then, when he managed to fight back and escape. He explicitly says that he decided to stay in the sidelines and let the Vong to invade so he can have time to study more Sith Arts and start his plans to dominante the Galaxy.
He already was in a bad path before being tortured, the torture made him a Sith Lord but Krayt's own megalomania is what moved from "Sith number 27492" to "Most destructive Sith Lord is history only matched by Vitiate or Palpatine"
Edited by KazuyaProta on Apr 19th 2024 at 4:06:04 AM
Watch me destroying my country
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
By the way did we find a new quote for the Fan Works page?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I know that I grabbed these three quotes from the quotes page, and that Sky proposed this one. I'm partial to the Yzihira one myself.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I think once the page gets launched, I'm gonna go to the page quote discussion for that, and also to see if people wanna keep the current VG quote or use something else (there's a quote from one of the Kirby works).
I've also got a possible image for the VG page:
Happy weekends!... and I regretfully have to announce a cut. One of my own, in fact. Specifically, Etelgar from Ultraman Ginga S The Movie: Showdown! The 10 Ultra Warriors!
- Complete Monster: Etelgar ("Super Space-time Demon") intends to conquer entire universes, firstly by abducting the Ultramen protectors of each universe and having them trapped in suspended animation, still aware of their surroundings but completely immobile. Invading the peaceful Planet Zandt causing untold amounts of destruction, Etelgar had the princess of Zandt, Arina, captured and put through brainwashing turning her into his lackey; implanting False Memories in her mind to trick her into believing that her home planet was destroyed by the Ultras; and subjecting her to regular Mind Rape to enforce her loyalty. Intending to invade the universe of Ultraman Ginga and Victory, Etelgar nearly managed to have Ginga and Victory sealed alive in his collection, and later recreates a mountain-sized copy of the previous villain Dark Lugiel to destroy the city for his own sadistic pleasure.
——
His worst crime, the invasion of Planet Zandt and abducting the planet's princess, Arina, to become his Unwitting Pawn... of course, it's bad. But according to the Ultraman Wikia (which recently partnered with Tsuburaya, and the details are likely fact-checked - also, the following details are on the film's Japanese Wikipedia page), turns out the destruction of Zandt is part of the False Memories Etelgar implanted into the princess and in reality? Planet Zandt's fine. No Earth-Shattering Kaboom whatsoever, the planet still stands and can be easily rebuilt.
Now, evidently, a space-demon-overlord the size of Godzilla attacking a planet will definitely yield some casualties, but rewatching the climax? After Hikaru, Shou and Musashi (Ultraman Ginga, Ultraman Victory and Ultraman Cosmos) destroyed Etelgar and released the princess, Arina then thanks them for "helping me to smile again", instead of "thanks for killing the infernal Space-Demon who massacred a billion innocent citizens of Planet Zandt"... effectively, Etelgar's worst crime, invasion of a peaceful planet, was not really touched upon and Arina's worst flashbacks is part of a False Memories sequence. Take that away and Etelgar's rapsheet is down to:
- Brainwashing the innocent princess into becoming his Unwitting Pawn and subjecting her to regular Mind Rape - bad, but it's only one victim
- Enslaving various Ultramen in a void - they're trapped in an And I Must Scream state for maybe a few years, but considering the average Ultramen can live to thousands of years that's probably a weekend of solitary confinement for human standards
- Summoning a kaiju clone of Dark Lugiel into attacking the city - Kaiju Rampage is Tuesday for Toku
Back when the movie was new (2015-ish), the severity of Planet Zandt's invasion is somewhat flipped-flopped between fans, but Arina's final scene, combined with Word of God (maybe) proves that it's nowhere as bad as the flashback implies. Either way, suggesting to cut this guy (and add him on Former Complete Monsters) on the basis of:
- Ultraman Ginga S The Movie: Showdown! The 10 Ultra Warriors!: Etelgar: The destruction of Planet Zandt is part of a False Memories sequence (in actuality the planet's fine) and his other deeds are more generic for toku standards
Edited by RobertTYL on Apr 19th 2024 at 11:12:26 PM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Is there any source of this other than the wiki? We tend to not trust information on wikis since they can be edited by anyone.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Not really, but Princess Arina's (the sole onscreen "victim" of Etelgar's rampage) isn't too emotionally scarred in the aftermath, which kind of breaks the "treated In-Universe with fear" rule for CM. Thought it'd be worth discussing
Buzz
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to the image. It looks like the red guy is nomming on a statue rather than an actual character. It doesn't help that Godzilla doesn't appear to have any reaction to this.
Uh I'd contest that being mitigating for Krayt. He's way past that. Most order 66 survivors didnt become raving maniacs like him.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."