The Web Original namespace -- is it necessary?

This is split off from this cleanup thread, in order to decide what to do with the namespace itself (following the recent deprecation to the Wiki/ and LightNovel/ namespaces).

The WebOriginal/ namespace is being used as a catch-all for any internet works, but the problem is that, according to this namespace check, about a third of these pages are in the wrong namespace and should be moved.

Of the remaining pages, most of them are Original Character Tournaments, which could be argued go on the Roleplay/ namespace, and literature that originated on the internet, for which I'd proposed a separate namespace for (list of qualifying works can be found at Sandbox.Web Fiction Namespace). If all of these pages were to be moved, all that would remain are pages on memes, social media accounts, and tournaments (all of which are of questionable tropability) and a bunch of pages where the source is dead (or, in some cases, might've never even existed).

Thus, I wonder if this namespace is even needed at all. Even Administrivia.Namespace admits that "This namespace is mostly deprecated. It's mainly used for memes, which we don't want anymore, as well as holdovers from the infancy of namespaces."

Edited by FernandoLemon on Aug 10th 2022 at 11:55:52 AM

I don't think so. Even the odd cases like the previously discussed WebOriginal.Cat Ghost could work in Web Fiction/ or Web Animation/ if necessary (though I'd prefer the former due to the video game and ARG components).

I'd prefer Web Original/ tl have no works, we should already have more specific namespaces for any case possiblse, well Web Fiction/ is still pending in its own thread.

Edited by Amonimus on Aug 10th 2022 at 5:45:02 PM

I'd say yes, there will always be a need for a catch-all term due to the web's potential for mixed media.

17776 is a mix of text, still images, animated .gifs, and YouTube videos, which is why it was moved from Literature/ to WebOriginal/.

And I'm currently drafting a page for one of ClickHole's online quizzes.

If WebFiction/ is to include not just text-based web works, but all works of fiction (as opposed to non-fiction) on the web regardless of medium, what is even the point of splitting it from WebOriginal/? That's not a medium split at that point, that's a fiction/non-fiction split.

17776 is the exception, not the rule. Unless a WebFiction/ namespace is created, those works belong in Literature/.

(Honestly, what separates the AlternateHistory.com timelines currently in Literature/ from those in WebOriginal/?)

I agree that a number of works currently in WebOriginal/ actually belong in a more specific category like Literature/; I'm talking about the WebOriginal/ namespace itself. As long as there is even one tropable work that would be shoehorning to put into another category, the namespace will be needed.

Web Original is way too broad IMO. It can cover pretty much anything web related so I think that in itself makes it utterly redundant as a namespace.

I wouldn't mind Web Original being relegated to an index of sorts because at least it makes sense there.

My thoughts on the Literature / Web Original distinction:

1. Web novels currently go in Literature/. With yesterday's decision on light novels, the adaptation exception no longer applies.
2. Ebooks are just hard copies in a digital format. They currently go in Literature/.
3. Threads on AlternateHistory.com, SpaceBattles.com, etc. currently go in Literature/. Only the threadmarked stuff is part of the work; posts by the author which aren't threadmarked are Word of God.
4. AFAIK, 17776 is literally the only narrative work in WebOriginal/ which doesn't fit cleanly into another namespace, and it's only outside the bounds of Literature/ by technicality.

I am vehemently against the creation of a WebFiction/ namespace, as I believe web literature is still literature. (Unless it's fanfic, but that's a different can of worms entirely.)

Edited by bwburke94 on Aug 11th 2022 at 4:08:52 AM

Couldn't the forum ones be Roleplay? I mean they're not literature in the traditional sense...

Also, I personally took Web Fiction/ to be broader than just web literature, because I don't really know why it wouldn't be, the namespace doesn't imply otherwise? But I haven't been keeping up with the convo about it, admittedly.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 11th 2022 at 4:21:28 AM

The problem is that WebFiction/ is too broad to be a namespace if it isn't limited to literature, and not necessary if it is limited to literature.

Is the definition of "literature" too broad or too narrow? Is literature only for books? Does stuff like creepypasta count as literature? Do we count works like AIIM (which is told through a simulated chatroom) and I Like Monkeys (through e-mail) as "literature"? Is stuff like Koan of the Day and Unichat literature? They are described as webcomics, but they don't have any illustrations, which is what makes them comics in the first place, so I would argue they're not webcomics.

Literature/ covers all mainly text-based works. Online vs. paper is not, in my opinion, a substantial distinction that would justify making a new namespace.

Homestuck is in the Webcomic namespace mostly out of momentum and tradition rather than adequacy of the term. Leaving it there while sorting 17776 into Literature would be an absurd testament to the hubris of a medium taxonomy that doesn't account for new media being used in new ways. Therefore, I vote whole-heartedly in favour of both the ends and the means. Station VIII ho!

I'm going to chime in to say that I agree with bwburke94.

If I may cite precedent, Where's Wally? is in Literature/ even though it's entirely picture-based, so having pictures that are integral to the story doesn't necessarily mean that something isn't literature.

I guess these are fair points about WebFiction/, but what about the points on whether WebOriginal/ should be cut?

Edited by FernandoLemon on Aug 11th 2022 at 5:21:18 AM

I think Web Original/ is pretty useful for web related works without a "canonical" content restricted to a single media, like internet urban legends and "creepypastas". For example The Backrooms started as a paragraph of text, but it also has grown to include other short texts, videos, animations etc., to the point that it isn't restricted to the original post.

If Web Fiction/ is created, however, I agree that would make it unnecessary.

Sorry to say, but The Backrooms is likely going to be split soon. Can you give another example?

Ben Drowned, EverymanHYBRID, This House Has People In It arguably? Most ARGs are presented as a scavenger hunt through a variety of media.

Edit: Oh - Mortasheen is... in theory a tabletop rpg, in practice an online monster manual? Awful Hospital is an Interactive Comic but the Noisy Tenant setting as a whole includes games, animations, and short stories.

Edit 2: Why is The Slender Man Mythos in Franchise/? Victor Surge didn't collect profits from it other than the works he personally wrote, the mythos as a whole was collectively-created. Is that the plan for The Backrooms, too?

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Aug 11th 2022 at 6:32:02 PM

I mean... ARG is a namespace that exists...

...which is also barely used, if the index is any indication.

If the goal is to eliminate redundant namespaces, surely it makes more sense to put works which rely on the interactive and multimedia nature of the internet together in one section instead of separating them all out into other categories they only sort of fit.

Website/?

ARGs are not websites.

Some of them do incorporate websites, though.

I wouldn't say the ARG/ namespace being small is indicative of its worth, it's just a specific form of media not a lot of tropers are familiar with, but one that isn't even inherently internet based so I'd definitely not agree with lumping it back into Web Original/, the idea of ARG/ is more that it's an interactive mixed-media format with varying styles, some of which includes things like geocaching (real world item finding).

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 11th 2022 at 12:54:12 PM

Then that shouldn't be a mark against Web Original or Web Fiction having only a couple of pages that it is necessary for, either, should it?

(The potential need for a "multimedia" namespace as a sort of wastebasket taxon was closer to where I was going with that, though. The point I was trying to make wasn't that ARG/ is simply too small, but that only about half the works on the Alternate Reality Game page index are actually in the ARG/ namespace. Interactive Fiction, though a broader genre and thus a worse example, has a similar problem, where it looks like browser-based choose-your-own-adventure games can be classed as Video Game or Website/WebOriginal arbitrarily, depending on the judgement of who made the work page. Both suggest to me that artworks which don't fit comfortably into conventional media categories are pushed into them anyway.)

I did also have other examples besides ARGs in my previous post, by the way.

I have no problems with ARG/. Many pages at Alternate Reality Game not being in ARG/ may need own discussion.

I don't think low page count is a good argument, Wiki/ for example was depricated mainly because "Wiki" is no different from "Website" which is a proper name for a medium, and most pages if not all being inherently in poor condition.