To-do list:
- Move examples of Tier Induced Scrappy between either Low-Tier Letdown (for low-tier examples) and High-Tier Scrappy (for high-tier examples) if they fit. note that being hated by players is a required part of the definition; examples that do not mention that aspect are ZCEs and/or misuse.
Final count:
- Correct (Disliked By the Community): 4
- Incorrect (Not Disliked By the Community or No Mention of Scrappy-related Qualities): 38
- Incorrect (Wrong Placements AND No Scrappy-dom): 5
- Ambiguous (Unknown if Scrappy-dom is Accurate): 3
Wicks: 50/50
So I think there's largely two ways we can go about this, from what I understand upon looking at likewise posts:
- Scrap all the entries that aren't Tier-Induced Scrappies and remodel the trope into something indictive of its name.
- Split the trope between there being a trope for meta ranking versus actual Scrappy-dom.
I'm in favor of Option 1, personally, because TV Tropes is all about fandom as a wholesale. Meta shouldn't hold an influence outside of a Just For Fun sort of thing if it doesn't impact the fandom itself. That's at least what I think. All I think doing a split will do will merely make it more counter-intuitive and cause trope bloat for the other option, and may not even uniquely solve the problem that was there to begin with.
Wick check:
Tier-Induced Scrappies are, by definition, characters of overwhelming strength or overwhelming weakness that are disliked within the game precisely because of that. By its nature that isn't inherently a bad thing, but the problem is that it often completely foregoes its own definition:"Two variations of The Scrappy specific to Video Games and/or Tabletop Games.
The first, often seen in fighting games, concerns the best characters getting hated not out of a hatedom but for being overused and/or downright difficult to defeat due to their high power, gameplay-wise; understandably, those two points get on a lot of people's nerves and tend to be favored by other people. Characters who are Difficult, but Awesome tend to avoid this fate because they are hard to play well, but disproportionately powerful examples can still earn this status. A typical Tier Induced Scrappy is a high tier character with next to no learning curve, though high learning curve characters who are unreasonably difficult to beat when played by a master (especially if they also happen to be extremely frustrating to play against and/or boring to watch) can and will earn this status. Stone Wall characters are the most common candidates for this trope (especially heavy zoners), though touch-of-death rushdown characters (particularly ones with good approach options) also tend to earn the playerbase's hatred. Characters with massive weaknesses who are strong in spite of those weaknesses are also common targets just based off of principle; people hate unbalanced characters, and these characters are often powerful when they shouldn't be. See also Too Qualified to Apply. In other genres than fighting games, such as MOBA or Hero Shooter, these high-tiers can also be hated for being extremely difficult to deal with (if you're the enemy) or making the game centered around them and them alone (thus making you feel pointless if they're on your team). And for single-player games, they can be hated for being so powerful that they remove all challenge from the game.
The other, more common to RPGs, is a character who is widely hated because they just suck in gameplay terms. They might be the nicest person in the world, but if they're The Load in combat or gameplay, their fate is decided. A Low Tier Induced Scrappy has no Magikarp Power; they're bad from the start and they never get to a point where they become worth the trouble or able to hold their own, no matter how much you invest into them, especially when there's other, more rewarding characters on hand. In fighting games and MOBAs, they are frequently Skill Gate Characters who are easy to pick up and do well with and are dominant in lower-level play, but do exceptionally poorly in higher-level play; the Scrappy part often comes from bad players who insist on using them with the same suboptimal strategies and builds and refuse to get better, get destroyed by competent players, and proceed to ragequit, lagswitch (if possible), abuse report functions, send abusive private messages, rage on message boards demanding nerfs, and generally act like incorrigible Scrubs."
The problem that comes from this is how it's rarely often the character themselves aren't hated for being high-tier or low-tier, but are listed in spite of such. Seriously, I've done a wick check, and these were my results:
Wicks Checked: 50/50
- The Wolfguard (Roshea, Vyland, Sedgar and Wolf) from Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem: They go into detail of why they're disliked so much as units in FE12 while also pointing out they lack the character appeal to truly be saved as a wholesale (because the Archanea games are very characterization-light compared to other installments; even given Wolf and Sedgar were extremely useful in FE11, they don't stand out nearly as much as characters or individuals to really be seen as anything but a malignant tumor that comes with prepromotes in FE12 being so hideously badly-designed).
- Nash from Street Fighter V: Actual documentation given of with the users of Nash considering him cheap, and being very unfun to fight against.
- Bayonetta from Smash Bros.: Actual documentation given and it being historical how reviled she was in Smash 4, and how much a lot of that stigma hasn't just up and vanished even with Ultimate.
- Conjurer from Bravely Default: The Conjurer class lacks the character appeal or mechanics to save it, so it qualifies.
- Juno from Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade: Zero mention of actual Scrappy-dom, placement focuses solely on mechanical lackluster nature.
- Amelia from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones: Especially damning, given it notes her as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Lorenz from Fire Emblem: Three Houses: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Regular Jakob: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Guinevere: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- The Five Greatwyrms from Dragalia Lost: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Maribelle from Dragalia Lost: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Sigurd from Fate/Grand Order: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom. Especially damning, given it notes him as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Mightyena from Pokémon: Especially damning, given it notes it as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Volcarona from Pokémon: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom. Even worse, Volcarona I can confirm is a very popular Pokémon in general, so...
- Cielo from Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga: While Cielo is explained why they're weak, it's highly subjective and far from general agreement, as Cielo is an extremely popular character among MegaTen fans. Plus, he does have massive use especially versus the Superboss, and even then is far from useless. Can personally attest against him being disliked.
- Gotenks from Dragon Ball Fighter Z: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Archfey Warlock from Dungeons & Dragons: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Revenant from Apex Legends: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom, aside from "falling to the bottom of the Scrappy heap". Cannot confirm as somebody who doesn't play Apex Legends if it's accurate, but I'm doubtful.
- Caustic from Apex Legends: Absolutely zero mention of Scrappy-dom and is a Base-Breaking Character, so even worse.
- Lt. Morales from Heroes of the Storm: No mention of Scrappy-dom, or that it's been on "both" ends, confusingly enough.
- Lyndis from Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade: Especially damning, given it notes her as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Reaper from Overwatch: Folder gives nothing about actual Scrappy-dom, and is too jumbled overall.
- The Laid-back personality: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom outside of vague subjectivities and unknowns.
- Red and White from Magic: The Gathering: Nevermind Boros being a very popular combination color-wise, it's only focusing on the fact that it sucks in Commander. That's it.
- Rachel Alucard from BlazBlue: Continuum Shift: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- The Onion Knight from Dissidia: Final Fantasy: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Dan Hibiki from Street Fighter: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom outside of some extremely vague language, or discernible proof of such.
- Dragoons from Final Fantasy XI: A very popular class, so no mention of Scrappy-dom.
- Diddy Kong from Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Patrick from SpongeBob SquarePants: Battle for Bikini Bottom: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Mouse-Man from Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. Also, dafuq?
- Dwarves from Total War: Warhammer: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. Dwarves are popular as hell too in Warhammer, dafuq?
- Robo from Chrono Trigger: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Sten from Dragon Age: Origins: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Vincent from Final Fantasy VII: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. And he's an Ensemble Dark Horse, so dafuq?
- Xigbar from Kingdom Hearts 365 1/2 Days: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. And he's an Ensemble Dark Horse, so dafuq?
- Kaiden Alenko from Mass Effect: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Yusuke from Persona 5: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Hope from Xenoblade Chronicles X: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak, and she's a well-liked character in spite of it.
- The Twins from Dead by Daylight: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Fighter and Monk in Pathfinder: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Takeda Clan from Total War: Shogun 2: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak, and they're popular.
- Alchemist from Dota 2: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- Tyrael from Heroes of the Storm: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- Kind and Laid-back Personality from Miitopia: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- The Nightmare from Dead by Daylight: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- The Monk in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- Nuubee from J Stars Victory VS: Unknown if reasons listed for being disliked are legitimate. May need confirmation.
- Lian from Paladins: Seems to be legit, but otherwise seems to focus on how OP their auto-aim abilities are.
- The Boss Characters from 100% Orange Juice: Seems legit, but needs confirmation from the fandom.
Final count:
- Correct (Disliked By the Community): 4
- Incorrect (Not Disliked By the Community or No Mention of Scrappy-related Qualities): 38
- Incorrect (Wrong Placements AND No Scrappy-dom): 5
- Ambiguous (Unknown if Scrappy-dom is Accurate): 3
Wicks: 50/50
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 23rd 2023 at 9:26:14 AM
Ambassador of Eurogames and Touhou Music
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think they should still be listed, though with a notice saying they were salvaged in later instalments.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I'll probably tackle the last two subpages later today. I haven't been awake that long and right now I'm dealing with carpal tunnel in my right hand, so I'm taking a break right now.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 9th 2023 at 1:39:48 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Subpages are done, so we just have to finish taking care of the wicks now.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Only the YMMV/ namespace is left, with 430 wicks total (some of which are staying).
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Just below the 350 mark at 349. Had to cut multiple examples because they don't mention the reaction part of the definitions (players hating the characters).
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 24th 2023 at 1:18:34 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Down to 232. I've been working on this off and on, but I had some other projects to work on recently.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Working on this. What do I do for entries that combine the high- and low-tier varieties in one example?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Just stoic wisdom.
Rip 'em apart into separate entries.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Thanks.
Next question, what if it's an entry like this:
- Character A started out being seen as the high-tier version of this...(elaboration)...then was nerfed so much they became seen as a low-tier version of this...(elaboration)
Ambassador of Eurogames and Touhou Music
I guess that character would warrant a mention on both pages. (A lot of these types of examples seem to have been lost after the removal of "Both" folders...)
- High-Tier Scrappy: The first iteration of Alice was notorious for her BFG, which could easily kill the opponent with one hit. However, she was later nerfed into oblivion and became a Low-Tier Letdown.
- Low-Tier Letdown: Alice used to be a High-Tier Scrappy whose BFG could easily kill the opponent with one hit. However, said BFG was later nerfed into oblivion, and Alice ended up being useless because she has nothing else going for her.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!
Captain of USS Bajor
I broke up the example block on YMMV.Star Trek Online between Game-Breaker, High-Tier Scrappy, Low-Tier Letdown, and Scrappy Weapon, and also added Game-Breaker to the disambig page.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I got the rest, so locking up.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to split the low-tier and high-tier examples of Tier Induced Scrappy into separate tropes. What should the trope for high-tier examples be called?