The part of Game-Breaker's description I referred to doesn't disagree that high-tiers aren't necessarily game-breakers, because it says that high-tier examples of Tier Induced Scrappy often overlap, not that they always do.

That said, I wouldn't be against removing that part in favor of simply saying to compare Tier Induced Scrappy (or rather, the high-tier YMMV item we're splitting from it) instead of mentioning overlap, because I'm reminded of the description-related debate in the Ill Girl thread, which involved a part that used the word "usually" being removed because it wasn't always present. Maybe it would be worth taking to the Trope Description Improvement Drive.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 7th 2022 at 2:33:59 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I think these are our names so far (some of these being permutations of the names suggested for the low-tier page):

• High-Tier Scrappy
• Overpowered And Unenjoyable
• High Tier Letdown
• Top Tier Trash
• Metagame Scrappy

I left out the character-specific names since it was pointed out that these pages aren't going to be character-specific.

Anyway, does anyone have any other suggestions before I hook a new crowner?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 10th 2022 at 8:21:46 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I prefer Metagame Scrappy. High Tier Letdown does not mesh well for me, in the meantime.

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Same. I also feel like "Scrappy" should remain part of the name for this one.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

"Letdown", "trash", "unenjoyable" don't really make sense for a character who's too strong. Unenjoyable would mainly apply to those playing against the Scrappy, so maybe it's a bit less bad than the others, but still not the best choice.

It can technically be enjoyable to play them, too. I enjoy sniping in Team Fortress 2 sometimes, but good snipers are the worst thing to go against.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

I’d say it should be split into two tropes.

• Low-Tier Scrappy: For characters disliked for being too weak and impacting the game negatively.
• High-Tier Scrappy: For characters disliked for being too strong and impacting the game negatively.

Those are my ideas, feedback would be awesome. Note that they have to be provably Scrappies on the wholesale than just any random Joe Schmoe.

Edited by CalamityRaven26 on Jun 12th 2022 at 7:15:13 AM

You may want to look at the crowner at the bottom.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Yes, we already decided to split, and we're moving low-tier examples to Low-Tier Letdown. The current crowner is for the high-tier examples since we already chose a name for low-tier examples.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 12th 2022 at 11:01:43 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Ah, okay. High-Tier Scrappy and Low-Tier Letdown sounds like a fair idea then.

Thanks!

The current image would be an easy fit for High-Tier Scrappy.

There is one video, but it'll be moved once the pages go live.

Edit: Starting the sandboxes using the existing TIS as a description blueprint.

Edited by Berrenta on Jun 14th 2022 at 10:00:33 AM

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I personally advise that Low-Tier Letdown is used moreso for something that doesn't fit within the definition of Scrappy, and should be neutral in tone; the amount of characters I think fit as a Scrappy is small enough, but honestly is better covered under the notion of it being divided between what the criteria is.

So... what should tie criteria of Low-Tier Letdown be, if not as a Scrappy? Keep in mind it has to tie in some way to be relevant with fandom, so obviously that just makes much of the response rooted in YMMV as a wholesale.

Edit: I saw the Low Tier Letdown page, and decided to make my own edits. How does this sound?:

Criteria #1: Have to be bad in the confines of the game itself; characters that boast Magikarp Power are largely exempt from this; even if they're bad by definition of their meta ruleset, them being designed with getting stronger in mind and pretty regularly pulling it off should largely be exempt from this, because it means they can get to a level where they can hold their own, which is not what this trope is about. It's when a character starts of bad and simply lacks anything of ease to make them anywhere near playable.

Criteria #2: They have to be infamous within the fandom as bad, a la Memetic Loser. Characters that are bad yet an Ensemble Dark Horse are largely exempt from this; it's characters that are notorious for sucking especially hard within those confines where this applies. Note that said reputation has to come from a gameplay-sense than a story-sense.

If both of these qualities match, then yes, I'd say they count as a Low Tier Letdown.

Edited by CalamityRaven26 on Jun 17th 2022 at 9:39:26 AM

I think Magikarp Power characters should still be able to apply depending on how long they take to get going and how awful they are during their weak period. This rolls back into the "any character is technically usable with enough Level Grinding if permitted" thing I brought up before. Being usable doesn't make you good when it takes 5 years to get there, or you're only available so late into the game that the extra investment isn't worth it.

I also disagree on leaning on the Memetic Loser aspect unless it's for games with a ridiculous amount of options. As a random example, Final Fantasy I only has a handle of classes, and the Thief probably sucks ass the most. However, nobody's making fun of them to that extent due to the age of the game. Being a Memetic Loser is probably a good indicator for qualifying but shouldn't be the gospel.

Edited by Karxrida on Jun 17th 2022 at 12:37:33 PM

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Fair enough. It was largely because of the fact that the definitions of the trope regarding Tier Induced Scrappy was defined as "characters who are hated for being two strong/too weak". There deserves to be some criteria for which the trope has to fit in by virtue of it's definition - otherwise, it'll simply go through the same process of having a plethora of examples be inaccurate if the definition is poorly-defined. Like yes, it's for characters that suck, but what's the criteria relative to YMMV? What is there to be defined relative to that?

I also think it depends on ease of use versus cost ratio. Amelia is terrible in The Sacred Stones, but does have a variety of resources anyone else can use to help her bring her up to speed. Like yeah, she's still awful, and virtually everyone else can use those resources, but it's still often a very easy process to bring her up to speed given how Fire Emblem's meta discounts grinding by virtue of opportunity cost, so the game outright letting you circumvent that makes it a LOT more practical for usage, because by its nature, grinding pretty squarely breaks how FE is designed in half. Compare and contrast to somebody like, say, Gwendolyn, who joins as a Magikarp Power unit in a class that isn't very good that even when maxed out is still mediocre at best due to said class, all in a game that has fixed limited XP and a ton of competition as a wholesale for said XP.

That's where I'm concerned - the definition of said trope, and criteria for it. I've made this topic largely by how many inaccurate examples there were relative to Tier Induced Scrappy's criteria. Not having well-defined criteria is just going to result in there being the same problems we're dealing with now if it's not handled well.

I should clarify that I'm using it as a benchmark for something else; whether the character is infamous. Memetic Loser is just what I had on hand, but as a wholesale it has to be a character everyone knows sucks; if normal bad characters are just bad-bad, this is a case of So Bad, It's Good / So Bad, It's Horrible - bad by the standards of the game itself. I think it being known by fandom consensus as "something that must be avoided at all costs" would do this a massive service, as it's by that YMMV definition the trope spawns from that helps give a clearer definition of what the trope is as a wholesale. Just splitting the tropes without even asking what the requirements of said trope are is just gonna ask for a headache later on.

Edited by CalamityRaven26 on Jun 17th 2022 at 6:34:57 AM

Checking in. Should we start sorting out the on-page examples? We could create the subpages straight up so that we can worry about the main page sandboxes later.

Edit: Since we already have separate High/Low Tier pages, what about the "both tiers" area? As for works with their own TIS pages, should we start splitting those?

Edited by Berrenta on Jul 9th 2022 at 3:03:01 AM

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It was mentioned that we could just split "both tiers" into a high tier and a low tier example. I also think that category needs a cleanup anyways, because some examples are about something being situationally useful, which doesn't really count. I also saw an example or two that felt like two people arguing over high/low tier, when in reality the character is simply mid tier or is designed for a specific play style.

Okay, added the High Tier/Low Tier example lists from TIS to the respective sandboxes. No long page warnings, thankfully.

Left an area for subpages in each.

As for the game subpages, Miitopia's can go. Only 4 examples total, all qualify for LTL, and all are walls of text. I'll see how to get those text walls pruned.

Edited by Berrenta on Jul 20th 2022 at 10:11:49 AM

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Do you think the Pokemon franchise should have a subpage for Low-Level Letdown? It already has a page for Low Tier Tier Induced Scrappy.

Edited by DecafGrub47393 on Aug 27th 2022 at 11:00:30 AM

With the previous point about Game-Breaker, should we also bring Cheese Strategy in as well since it also discusses potentially OP methods?

I think I'll go ahead and move Sandbox.Low Tier Letdown and Sandbox.High Tier Scrappy into place since there hasn't been any progress since the beginning of the month, so having places to move wicks to would probably help.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

One subpage (for Miitopia) was an easy move, so that's done.

Edit: Same for Arknights.

Edited by Berrenta on Sep 29th 2022 at 6:43:30 AM

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