Are tropes stereotypical?

I remember my first day at Tv Tropes as if it was yesterday. A quick glance at some random pages, and a disgusted "Ew, it's a wiki of stereotypes!" reaction. Then I joined anyway, since I felt it was worth to raise hell in there.

But the thought bugs me to this day, so it may be a good idea to ask what's the relation between our tropes and stereotypes?

This is probably better in Trope Talk, but Stereotype explains it.

It's a matter of categorization. Most clichés are tropes, but not all tropes are clichés. Similarly, while most stereotypes can be found as tropes, not all tropes are about stereotypes.

For example, Soft Glass isn't stereotyping anything. It's just a special effects technique.

Also, having a page on a certain subject or stereotype is not the same as endorsing or promoting it. The wiki is politically neutral (at least in theory), all we do is document what the media does.

For example, our Scary Black Man page is about a stereotype that can potentially be harmful. We, the TV Tropes community, are not saying that black men are scary, we're saying that a lot of shows portray them that way. If anything, the page's existence can help educate people about how prevalent this stereotype is and the effects it can have.

Exactly. Depraved Homosexual is not us saying that homosexual people are depraved. It is documenting a real and long-running phenomenon in media that depicts LGBTQ+ characters as depraved. Fortunately it is no longer as prevalent as it once was, but we can't pretend it didn't happen.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 30th 2022 at 5:48:46 AM

Worth nothing (on a side note) that there are still tropes with questionable names (Date Crêpe, for one) but sometimes those names are kept to illustrate how the trope is problematic (IIRC that's why Hot Gypsy Woman still has that name). And sometimes questionable names can change for different reasons (Transsexual to Transgender prior to that trope getting cut, the "Rape Is OK If X" tropes getting renamed due to issues with advertisers, etc.)

Hot Gypsy Woman is... a very, very difficult one. The name was kept because it perfectly encapsulates the stereotype, not just in that the name is as problematic as the trope but because there was nothing better. Every other suggestion either limited it to the Roma unnecessarily (Gypsy as a term has been used for more) or broadened it to the point of meaninglessness (Often with the term "nomad"). We kept it out of necessity, rather than because we all really wanted to.

You can read the discussion here, but be warned that it got a bit heated.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 31st 2022 at 3:10:45 PM

I will add though that all of the above while true, this applies to the tropes as they exist. How they are used on the site is a different beast.

I know I've thought about TRS-ing Scary Black Man because I've found that many people have applied it to any Black male character (sometimes female too) who appears tough or strong, and make no mention of how they are portrayed in-universe to emphasize or communicate their scariness. So it sometimes comes off like the trope that is supposed to be documenting a stereotype is now perpetuating the very same stereotype it's meant to just document.

It's a tricky thing.

Edited by amathieu13 on Feb 12th 2022 at 9:25:10 AM

Sounds like something that might be worth a wick check. I can definitely see where there would be problems there.

SBM is a real problem. The stereotype exists, and it is certainly reflected in media, but... How do you tell if any one example is valid? It's similar to Bury Your Gays, where you would have to conduct a statistical survey rather than list every example (with no control, that isn't meaningful).

I can see two ways forward: rename it to something like Dark-skinned Brute and enforce a stricter definition (must be more violent than the rest of the cast), or turn it into an example-less page about the stereotype.

It sounds like the problem isn't the trope itself, just that "Tough Black Man" is conflated with "Scary Black Man" when they might be closely related but not synonymous tropes.

I think turning it into an exampleless page would be dumb. The point is to show that, yes, this is a stereotype in media. It's a problem, and the examples are evidence of the problem. Even when it's not overtly racist, I still see people point out the Unfortunate Implications of a black character being noticeably buffer and tougher than most other (white) characters, even if they're not the only tough one in the work.

Yeah, if it's anything it's more of a Trope in Aggregate (like Black Dude Dies First), but it's still absolutely a trope and shouldn't lose examples.

I wonder if we could split Tough Black Man? Though that's a question for a potential TRS thread.