Wiki and Forum Policy - General Discussion

Fighteer and I have known each other, here at TVT, for almost 12 years. In that time he and I have had extensive interactions with each other, some negative, mostly positive. We have gotten into arguments to the point that other users had to tell us to cool off, and he and I have exchanged opinions and views on issues of mutual interest to us both. I have never received nor have I witnessed the biased behavior he is accused of. I presume it's true. He is a very outspoken person, one who works very hard, is meticulous about detail, and can be very blunt about his opinions. Some of his views regarding recent cultural changes are, to put it extremely politely, badly outdated.

I welcome him back to the forums. One thing about Fighteer that I have noticed over the years is that he doesn't hold back, and he is completely open and honest about his beliefs and feelings. He has apologized for what he did, and has promised to behave better in the future, and I will personally take him at his word. That said, I also presume that the admins will follow through on their word to hold every mod, user and themselves accountable for their behavior, and to uphold the values of TV Tropes, which include diversity and inclusion. And I support the policy that if anyone repeatedly falls afowl of this standard, they must eventually be removed.

TV Tropes is what it is due to the user culture. I can only presume that the owners originally bought this place because they see it as a positive marketing brand. That brand is and has always been based on the very public sense of community among the users, which itself is based on an atmosphere of casual trust. We who have been here know "How things are done", and that they are done that way for a reason, and those reasons are how TV Tropes has survived and grown all these years (and become the revenue stream that it is). I can only hope that the owners understand this.

One thing that continues to concern me is the hint we have received regarding mod workload. If the admins see bringing the mod team to full capacity as a priority, to the point that Fighteer's skills and experience are essential at this time, then I have to wonder if steps should be taken to ensure that we do not lose essential skills in the future. IIRC Fighteer helps out on some backend stuff like new accounts—quite apart from the recent controversy, what if he or some other mod decides that they have had enough of TV Tropes and move on, as almost everyone eventually does? Do we have a new mod training and orientation process here? If we don't then we really need one, something like a quick apprenticeship training or a "shadow mod" approach, so that there are back up people to take over essential functions quickly. I'm not privy to the metrics they use to gauge the overall health of TVT as an organization (which is what it is), but it seems to me that there should be a more standardized approach to this. It would also mean that we could bounce mods with no fear of losing essential functions.

Based on the admins statements so far, I anticipate that certain procedural changes are coming to TV Tropes. I don't think that the issues which have been raised in this thread have been fully resolved. I encourage the admins to see public conversation with their volunteer base as an opportunity to discuss these changes fully and openly before they are imposed by fiat. That will best preserve the unique culture and approach that distinguishes TV Tropes from other websites, and strengthen our sense of community, the foundation of what makes this a desirable place to visit and participate in.

Edited by DeMarquis on Sep 16th 2023 at 10:24:07 AM

Probably gonna be my last post in this thread before I dip for my own sanity.

Gonna echo what the vast majority of users have said. Fighteer really couldn't have chosen a worse time to come back. The fact that he chose now is truly astounding to me. I am very concerned about what this entails going forward.

Unfortunately, I have to echo what others have said. The situation continues to be mishandled so badly at every step that I'm starting to question basic competence of whatever the admins' plan for this site's direction is.

Regardless of my feelings, the policy changes aren't necessarily so bad on paper right now. The core obstacle seems to be that they require trust in admins to handle modding abuses in the future, while continually (by now) refusing to deal with them in the present. This undermines any trust that the future won't be more of the same.

I also remember that Fighteer's case was put on hold as he took his break. I'll be frank, I initially thought his return was orchestrated by the admins as some sort of Batman Gambit, to demonstrate how they want to deal with mod issues, by finally putting the lid on the case and addressing the troper complaints from so long ago.

Instead it looks like there's not going to be any resolution for Fighteer, aside from following the rules he'd have to follow anyway, and a bunch of "voluntary" conditions.

Come on. Fighteer, you of all people should know that "fine, I'll just avoid those topics/pages that made me go off the handle" never ever flied in Edit Banned.

I think that at this point, no statements will help assure the userbase that admins are actually capable of handling mod abuse. Some action is needed, to show that admins are going to handle stuff like Kory's unilateral unbanning, or Fighteer's years-long list of issues, in practice.

If Fighteer's aid is needed for the site in a more technical or consultant capacity, why not make him an engineer? It seems that most of the userbase (me included, and I didn't have any personal altercations with Fighteer) think that the mod team actually worked better and more efficiently when he wasn't there.

Please, don't take any of these as my demands, or anything like that. I'm just trying to describe how the situation looks. And it looks dire.

If it makes it better to hear it from someone not connected to the mod team: yes, it also happened when Kory locked the thread, I saw it.

Tangentially, I want to speak in defense of slow mode. It's invaluable for people like me to keep up with the thread. We're already repeating the same points (as is warranted). Being able to say And That's Terrible more often really wouldn't help anyone, I think.

There's been a lot of talk about Fighteer - as can only be expected - but what about crazysamaritan? Has he been in touch at all with the mods? Or is it like he's disappeared from the face of the earth?

Herein lies the rub that I think a lot of us are realizing: let's say I got myself in trouble on TV Tropes for bullying, using 'phobic language, dismissing minorities as "trauma posting" when they're just expressing concerns, etc. I go to Edit Banned, proclaim that I'm not apologizing for my actions, refuse to take accountability, then say "well I need a break anyway so bye."

Let's be generous and say 1 whole year later I come back to Edit Banned. "So hey I'm back, I have put a lot of work into this site and done thousands of edits, and some people want me back. I know I got in a lot of trouble last time but I just overextended myself and I apologize—btw no idea why that one incident upset so many people—and from now on I'll just recuse myself from LGBTQIA+ situations to make sure I don't say anything offensive. Unban me."

1 month ago, would that have seemed like a remotely acceptable, legitimate method of handling the situation? Would that have gotten "me" in this scenario unbanned? Absolutely not. But now, the admins have shown that if you have enough work put in, if they decide they "need" more people on the site, if they deem it acceptable because you "approve" of their methods, then a toxic personality is going to be allowed back on the site with absolutely no repercussions for years of abuse.

"We'll work out the Fighteer situation if he ever comes back" have been the calming words by the mod team for why nothing happened last time, and now that he is back, the admins themselves have dubbed him their unofficial arbiter and he's being welcomed back after what was, frankly, a not-great "apology" littered with excuses and loaded language such as "I'm still unclear how that particular thing (the "thing" being the use 'phobic language that he refused to apologize or accept accountability for) blew up so hard." and attributing his litany of issues to "burn out". He put quotation marks around "mean Fighteer" as if to imply that he feels the idea he was ever "mean" is false.

He expressly only apologized for situations in which he "assumed bad faith", offering nothing up to the people he offended with acephobic language, bullied, or suspended because checks notes they shared an IP with a new user. "I'm not doing a fake public apology or offering excuses" is one thing, but to then spend paragraphs, uh, excusing actions and chalking it up to "burn out" while not acknowledging why what was said hurt so many people...is another thing entirely. "Fake apology" avoidance is fine. Not taking accountability isn't.

Fighteer had 9 months to self-reflect and think up what to say upon a return, and his statement ultimately boils down to "the admins need me to bolster their ranks because I approve of their management skills—ie, mass thumping and banning—and because I will support them through such. Sorry for offending you 9 months ago even if I have no idea why so many were upset about it, I'll just try to avoid those topics in the future". Terrible look by the admins to bring him back at this juncture, terrible look for him to choose to come back at this juncture, just terrible all-around and utterly disappointing.

Let it be known that I am not saying Fighteer is some irredeemable monster asshole who needs to be permanently bounced off the site. He is a person like anyone else and he has good and bad qualities. He's capable of holding intelligent conversations and putting forth interesting ideas to things he is passionate about. This can be true while also acknowledging that his record as a moderator is marred with controversy and abuse of power, and I do not think him holding the position of mod is good for the site as a whole. And, if his words are to be believed, not good for he himself if we now have to tread lightly for fear of him "burning out" again.

He has shown over multiple years that he is not equipped to hold power over others on an internet forum like this, and 9 months means nothing to me when held up against that coupled with his "big comeback" post being an avoidance of accountability.

Okay, this is a question directed to the mods, except for Fighteer.

• When it was stated "we'll work out the Fighteer situation while he's on break, and tell him and the community what his consequences are when he gets back", did that mean what everyone thought it meant (that Fighteer's break wouldn't be the only consequence he suffered, and there would be something additional when he returned)?

• If so, did you, the mods, actually discuss potential consequences for Fighteer, and did you ultimately decide as a collective to go with the current situation, which seems to be nothing?

• Am I wrong that it's nothing? Is Fighteer suffering some sort of consequence that isn't immediately obvious?

• Is there currently any mod disagreement on the Fighteer situation, as far as the aforementioned lack of consequences go, or are all of you on the same page there?

No need to call out individual mods in your response.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 16th 2023 at 12:20:15 PM

Agreed with Ravok. I've been edit banned temporarily for zero-context examples. Fine, fair enough, we don't want those here.

Though even with that, I still had to go to the banned thread and demonstrate what I did wrong. And that was for something far lesser, IMO, than using even potentially phobic language.

And I'm just a regular user (albeit the unofficial curator for Complete Monster), not a mod. IMO, mods should, if anything, be held to a HIGHER standard. At the very least the same standard as regular users.

Does this mean that the "you can never discuss suspensions at all here" and "You should never talk about moderator abuse here" rules that Kory unilaterally added are being reversed? I just want someone to directly say so if that's the case.

Okay. I appreciate that there's some attempt at going back to baby steps. I still think there's a resounding airheadedness concerning the exact reasoning behind the community's dissatisfaction. You claim to be reviewing every post for their individual merit for the purpose of "better, more thorough" responses, but even this masterpost is incredibly broad and, with respect to many of the specific issues brought up by the community, still very nebulous. Largely it feels like another "we swear things won't happen like this again!" even though this was the same thing you were telling us last year after the Fighteer/Crazy/Septimus debacle.

I want you to hold onto this statement. Brand it to your foreheads if you need to. The one thing we have been consistently asking the moderators and the admins for is basic accountability in interacting with their userbase and managing their own actions. Even at what feels like the end of this, I'm still nowhere close to convinced that you'll actually keep this promise—especially when the vast majority of the userbase has opined they do not want Fighteer back in any administrative capacity whatsoever.

I want a promise from you people, and this particularly concerns Fighteer, if you must insist on reinstating the singularly most toxic member of the moderator team—stick to that statement. If Fighteer ever overreaches or tries to act like a petty bully again, we want him gone. Do you understand? Particularly he shouldn't be allowed to go anywhere near the Edit Banned thread. He's resolutely proven he's not mature enough to handle that.

One more thing, because in every mod post you seem to want to keep emphasizing this:

And both the admins and the mods need to understand something crucial that has apparently been flying over their heads this whole time. You own the website. You (in the case of the admins and the devs) are paid to upkeep it. But if the admins begin to make decisions the community doesn't like, there will be revolt—and if they continue to dig their feet in, especially after this whole mess, the fire will spread. Without a thriving userbase you don't have a community, you don't have revenue—you don't have anything. And the community is very aware about what they can do at this point.

This was not a case of "glass houses." This was not a case of the userbase being unruly. This was 100% the fault of toxic moderators and toxic admins digging their feet to try and avoid basic responsibility to basic user feedback. If you want to earn back our trust, the onus of that is going to be on you to prove you're even worth trusting. Like I said, I'm willing to begin taking those steps again, but I want absolutely no illusion as to who is in the wrong here.

This is not a 'forgive and forget' kind of thing, no matter how much the admins may (implicitly to me) wish it is. Even with the ATT thread unilaterally deleted and numerous users unfairly thumped or suspended, we have receipts for every instance of abuse here and the experience to know what to do if this ever happens again.

Remember that.

Edited by Scraggle on Sep 16th 2023 at 4:49:34 AM

Limit his posting... He triple posted in the space thread already, and one of his posts while not outright defending SpaceX, is certainly conveying excitement for the next launch. He's had 17 posts today in total. Looking back at his posting history that's in very in line with his average. I don't think he's limiting at all. Nor do I think he's staying away from topics which trigger him.

Edited by jjjj2 on Sep 16th 2023 at 4:33:32 AM

I'm going to concur. We were promised last time fighteer was on his last chance. And if Crazy comes back, I will expect an accounting for his misdeeds as well.

This isn't "The owners built a product and that's that." The users here are the ones you rely on to build the site. If your point is "we're allowing an abusive bully back in place with limits on what he can do," then so be it. Don't expect us to be thrilled or not to monitor it very close.

Again, I feel it's necessary to acknowledge that we know the mods and admins have the final say. Nobody was actually questioning that authority. The issue came from how we were told we essentially didn't get a say at all.

So yes, I would like more specifics. Was Kory's rule change reversed? If not, what feedback is acceptable feedback? We understand you guys are okay with feedback — we understand you're willing to let us speak up, as long as we understand we don't have the final say... but someone simply giving feedback was what caused this mess to begin with and the actual question of "where is the line" has yet to be answered.

People weren't angry solely because of the rules being changed; people were angry because the rules that got changed stripped us of our ability to share opinions or even just weigh in on issues that concerned us. Repeating that you guys value feedback and are willing to listen is wonderful and all, but we need an answer with more substance so that we know what we're actually allowed to do.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 16th 2023 at 4:38:57 AM

This leaves the unanswered question of "should we expect that if someone is unbounced they won't need to go through EB?"

Honestly, I was taking that to mean "in a mod context", not... ceasing to interact as a regular user. The only thread that was ever a persistent problem there was Social Media.

Still more-or-less lurking (in spite of saying I'd leave, admittedly), I would like specifics as well. What's OK to report? What isn't?

I'd also like some sort of formal explanation for the ATT being deleted. Even if it's just "ATT isn't the place for those kinds of questions", which, while I still wouldn't condone the action if that's the case, would at least be some sort of formal reason.

Not going to comment on the Fighteer situation because, while I certainly have concerns, everyone else already said them. While I am also concerned about the AgProv situation, I am waiting to see what happens if/when issues come up again—although I will say I share concerns about how future matters with transphobic or otherwise bigoted tropers will be handled. Is there a guarantee from the mods that there will be intense scrutiny to any troper who appeals via the contact form? And if not, what is the proper course of action?

I will say that Kory and Klay agreeing they will not do mod duties is at the very least a quasi-comforting sign.

Not much else to say. (Crossing over with the Absent people thread for a bit (and if this is off-topic, this portion can be deleted from my comment), I'm making it known that, if this somehow miraculously resolves itself and relations somehow manage to be repaired (highly unlikely), I do plan to remain on break for longer before any sort of potential return. In addition to all of this online drama, I'm dealing with a sudden large amount of IRL stress and personal stuff that I need to sort out, combined with my increased school workload. Making it known to establish that my leaving was about more than this site drama.)

Might be a dumb question, but what does this cover exactly? Can it helps to prevent another burnout, so we don't get the events of last year again?

So far, I think the only evidence presented for this has been "trust me, bro".

This conversation is almost comically cyclical: "can you prove us anything will be done about the mountains of staff misbehavior before?" "No, but trust us." "Can we discuss any alternative to this?" "Also no, deal with it".

Then resign because you've clearly learned nothing.

If this is how I’d apologize at my job I’d be fired.

Kar, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it said last year that Mods themselves cannot either give or take away mod powers from anybody? Wasn't it said that only Admins could do that? So FIGHTEER cannot resign by himself, an Admin would be needed for that. Admins have already told us multiple times that they wont demod him now, that they will give him a final chance.

True enough. He keeps saying "I wont go on fake apologies tour" but he also isn't giving us real apologies either.

Edit: Even if Admins themselves have already established they they truly want him in the Mod position? Yeah, sorry, but no, I don't think Admins will demod him even if he wanted to be demodded.

Edited by megagutsman on Sep 16th 2023 at 3:43:13 AM

If you can't even bring yourself to say "I'll try to be better", I see no reason that we should trust you to be better.

If he acknowledged fault and asked to be demodded I can't imagine they would keep him in the role against his own wishes?

Edit: It's not like they could force him to perform mod duties if he chose not to.

Noted. We'll see how much that's worth.

Edited by Perseus on Sep 16th 2023 at 8:51:27 PM