Values Dissonance/Resonance Cleanup

I think the first bullet is valid, honestly. Yes, there can be cases of people facing a backlash for having gender-nonconfirming interests in the 'West', but from what I've read it's dramatically worse in Japan and this has indeed caused some kerfuffles in regards to character motivations in other works.

But the series doesn't reflect that. It never punishes Tomo for practicing Martial Arts, quite the contrary and as the example admits, it is one of the reasons why Jun likes her. So there isn't any Values Dissonance here.

Edited by SoyValdo7 on Mar 15th 2023 at 6:49:38 AM

It sounds like what it's saying is the dissonance is how much she angsts about not conforming, though.

I still think it doesn't count. As I mentioned, the work is in line with the viewpoint of modern society and it's simply not something that could only happen in Japan.

I hate saying this,you think that... But Does the majority or at least a tangible faction agree with you? And keep in mind I am sympathetic to your side but this is actually a huge issue in Japan. Girls are indeed pressured to be more femenine and they are pressured to let go of masculine traits.

Which majority? You mean the fandom Tomo-chan Is a Girl!?

EDIT: I think I gave the impression that I'm downplaying all these issues, please forgive me for that. I want to clarify that all the arguments I mentioned are directed at the Manga Tomo-chan Is a Girl! and this trope in particular, nothing else. I'm not the smartest person here so I gladly accept others' views on the subject.

Edited by SoyValdo7 on Mar 15th 2023 at 9:58:44 AM

The entry sounds to me like a case of in-universe beliefs, and it's true that in a lot of places in the West nowadays it's a silly fear to have and that most girls will not receive too much blowback in school or experience shame over enjoying tomboyish hobbies, and that small socially conservative towns where that still happens tend to be considered outliers.

No you didnt. You are super nice and you just gave your argument you did nothing wrong. Sorry if I implied you did, I meant more that this is a serious thing that does happen in Japan, but one can be forgiven for thinking it isnt. I didnt know until very recently.

If there are more than one people that agree with Valdo then it could be that Valdo was indeed right.

How are Tomo's concerns seen by others in-universe? The way it's being described makes it sound like the people around her don't really look down on her for it.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Mar 16th 2023 at 5:40:12 AM

Yeah now that I think about Valdo was right after all.

This was recently added to ValuesDissonance.Western Animation

• Except for some very popular ones, Western Animations (in general) aren’t popular in Japan, not only because of the presence of their own animation industry which is big enough to overlook its western counterpart, but also some difference about the sense of value. For example, casually wasting food for laughs is really hated by Japanese viewers who are taught to treat food with respect^note There are even greetings used specially for starting/finishing meals to show the food respect. . The casual portrayal of nuclear weapons are horrifying for Japanese people too, considering how they actually suffered nuclear attacks toward urban district and taught about its brutal outcome, on a similar note to the American’s general feeling about blackface.

This makes no sense. A bunch of western cartoons, such as King of the Hill, The Powerpuff Girls, Wacky Races, South Park, Steven Universe, The Impossibles, Pingu, Chowder, etc are beloved in Japan. Also, anime owes a LOT to the likes of Betty Boop and Bambi, since the Father of Manga, Osamu Tezuka was influenced by them and their big for eyes. I've never heard of a Japanese person hating a western cartoon because of the nuclear weapons and food fights; Thomas and Friends, which is listed as one of the "only" cartoons that Japan likes, once had a shed randomly explode. If anything, Japan seems to dislike cartoons with rude characters more than anything else.

Yeah, while some of it is due to globalization and the dominance of US culture on the international stage, I have seen tons of fans of Western cartoons in Japan, as well as many popular and high-profile Japanese media creators who will regularly reference Western cartoons as well as bandes-dessinees and the like. And that's not getting into how the anime industry was springboarded off Tezuka's love of Disney cartoons and comics.

This an anecdote of an anecdote, but I remember Ross O'Donovan talking once about visiting a Japanese forum where their topic of discussion was an American cartoon (something like Steven Universe I think) was coming to Japan. So yeah I definitely don't think it's that unpopular.

Also i don't think foodfights and nuclear weapons are prevelant enough to turn Japanese audiences away from western animation as a whole.

Also Japanese people, while yes, having lots of respect and fear of nuclear weapons, they arent as skittish about it like that entry says they are about them. There are many references to nuclear weapons in Japanese both in awe and respect or just played for laughs.

And that's not only not true but its a general example and we just cut those on sight.

Edited by AegisP on Mar 21st 2023 at 6:10:24 AM

I guess that begs the question of how much of a dealbreaker rudeness actually is to them then, because I'm pretty sure Japan loves plenty of rude characters.

That is true.

Ok that is actually more of a thing. Many entries have said Rainbow Dash is way more humble in the Japanese dub. But since I have no tangible proof I will go with one I do: Rick and Morty. See in the English original Morty and Rick are insanely rude to each other and there is little to no respect, same with Morty and Summer. But in the Japanese dub Morty is extremely polite to Rick and calls him Grandpa (Jii-Chan) and the same goes with Summer who he calls Sis (Onee-chan.) This has even extended to the anime shorts. Rick and Morty are basically different characters in the Japanese dub. But still, general example, gross exaggerations, that entry is unsalvageable. Lets just make actual examples instead.

Edited by AegisP on Mar 21st 2023 at 6:33:17 AM

Yeah, blatant Examples Are Not General violation trying to paint all western animation with the same brush. As for another anecdote, I have friends in Japan who report that some kids have The Simpsons merch.

And ironically though it didnt start that way Spongebob does EVEN greater in Japan than in the USA by virtue of being shown on Broadcast Network Television!

While I'm here, I recently revisited this Calvin and Hobbes storyline satirizing the prevalence of popular, marketable media over original media, which brought to mind similar discourse in the modern age, with Sequel Snark and Reboot Snark and the prevalence of "cinematic universes" seemingly being at a peak. I was wondering if it could be worked into a Values Resonance entry, but I can't think of a way to phrase it that doesn't sound complainy as hell, so I'm wondering if it's even worth trying.

EDIT: Actually while I checked the page, there's another Values Resonance entry praising the fact that Calvin is sometimes spanked as a punishment (which happens extremely rarely and usually offscreen, FYI) that sounds very dodgy and weird, and doesn't feel like an example as spanking isn't really as accepted as it was back then.

Well, delightful snark is what I'm trying to avoid. I think it fits Values Resonance more as the satire of the comic aged very well in an era of franchise films.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 21st 2023 at 9:56:32 AM

I dont think it is but it could make for a delightfully snarky Hilarious In Hindsight example.

EDIT: BTW this post was made before mewtron edited her post so I am definitely NOT calling spanking hilarious in any way.

EDIT 2: I think that as long as its not actually complainy and more tongue in cheek it can be kosher. Can you please put an example of what you want to post, so we can see its if its viable and alter it if needed?

Edited by AegisP on Mar 21st 2023 at 6:58:13 AM

I don't think it's even an example of Values Resonance in the first place, because one reason that I personally roll my eyes at such discourse is that it's been a thing for decades (and I'd argue was an inevitable product of the simple spread of leisure time and mass entertainment). Bill Watterson was not even close to the only person in the 80s/90s to have a beef with sequels and reboots.

Ok maybe not then. I still think it could be viable if worded right.

Well, unlike Hilarious in Hindsight, Values Resonance doesn't seem to require that the discourse be new, just that it aged well enough that it aged so well it actually resonates more in the modern era. I definitely think the increased ease of making and distributing films and getting an audience for them has led to this Sequel Snark and Reboot Snark discourse feeling more timely than it probably did in the early 1990s.

I'll provide a write-up to see how it looks:

• One 1992 storyline had Calvin chew out Hobbes for making "original art" (a clay tiger) instead of "popular art" with recognizable characters and merchandise tie-ins. While merchandising was obviously a source of discourse at the time (with Watterson famously being against merchandising his own comic), the increasingly easy production and distribution of sequels, spinoffs, and reboots since then, as well as the increased prominence and success of franchise films, has kept this discourse relevant.
  Hobbes: And how are the movie sequels this summer?
  Calvin: Great! Man, there's nothing I hate more than paying five bucks and having to deal with some new plot.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 21st 2023 at 10:10:39 AM