Values Dissonance/Resonance Cleanup

Ah, the portrayal of the Gonne is... complex. As a Swede, I never saw a problem with a sentient weapon being portrayed as evil (they are manufactured to kill things, after all), but clearly, some American readers do.

Then there's the fact that up until The Truth, modern inventions on the Discworld were always treated as dangerous, or at best like something that didn't belong in that universe. Just for one, Moving Pictures had the invention of cinema opening a portal for Eldritch Abominations to enter, and I wouldn't take that as a sign that Pratchett thought films are evil.

tl;dr: I think there's a valid point in that US Americans generally seem more bothered by the portrayal of the Gonne than other nationalities, but it's way too nattery.

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on Nov 27th 2022 at 8:10:17 AM

Since ValuesDissonance.Calvin And Hobbes has come up here multiple times, I'm thinking about putting it on the cutlist, since a lot of them are just overanalyzing.

Before I do so, are there any examples we can salvage? So far the only one I can think of is the one with Calvin's Native American costume.

Yeah, that one was pretty unanimous in counting. There may have been a few other examples (I did my own attempted Analysis on the page starting here, but never got around to actually acting on it.

Late to the part but I think the accent joke in Christmas Story counts because the more recent musical adaptation changed the joke while alluding to the original being seen as offensive.

Any thoughts on the Values Dissonance entry on YMMV.The Great Dictator?

• Values Dissonance: Chaplin's speech really doesn't fit with a modern understanding of fascism. He describes the Nazis as "machine men with machine minds" who "think too much and feel too little." It's now widely accepted that fascism is a highly emotional and irrational movement, generally brought about by paranoia and xenophobia.
  • It was Fair for Its Day, considering that this could be directed at the fascist elite. Both Italian and German fascism was prone to use feelings as a propagandistic tool to persuade the masses. Thus, the "thinking" part may be interpreted as a Take That! to the cynical abuse of people's hearts - and the commoners were not allowed to think that much anyway. This may also tie in to the fact that fascist regimes were prone to be rather technocratic, proudly presenting new machinery and architecture. Italy at the time had a boost in new and megalomaniacal building projects. The "heart vs mind" analogy goes on the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism label. The fact that Chaplin states that "we" think too much and feel too little, may also be considered a warning that all nations have the danger of fascism in them.
  • Or it can be just as easily interpreted as talking about "machines" behind dictatorship in general: war and propaganda, as they turn humans into nothing more than nameless cogs.
    • Similarly, that we think of the "problem" others present rather than empathizing with them.

I don't think anyone would really be offended or shocked to hear fascists compared to heartless machines. Like, you'll still find plenty of Nazi or fascist villains in media who are depicted as callous and emotionless. The two justifying edits seem like a sign to me that others read it as perfectly adequate condemnation.

I say cut the whole thing.

I agree, the example is misuse. no one considers speaking out against Nazis/Facism as a bad thing today.

(x3) That's not an example because Nazis are generally viewed as horrible (and rightfully so), especially nowadays.

I mean... I actually agree that there's something there in how it portrays Nazism as bad - as dehumanizing in a very technocratic, modern industrial sense rather than appealing to irrational deep-seated prejudices, but it's not really Values Dissonance. I'd call it Dated History (where I believe the similar Star Trek TOS episode "Patterns of Force" is listed), but I'm not sure you can call it 'history' when it's literally contemporaneous with Nazi Germany.

I agree here's definitely something to the point being made in the entry, but I also don't think you can really say Chaplin's criticisms are wrong or even outdated. I think it can both be true that Nazis were/are both irrational bigots and callous technocrats. In any case, I think whatever discrepancy in here pretty safely doesn't fall under Values Dissonance, so I'll delete the entry. If someone wants to take the idea behind the entry and find a YMMV item that fits it better, more power to you.

The example from the YMMV page on Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory that this thread already voted to cut is also on the YMMV page for the general franchise, albeit some revision in the latter part of the sentence.

• Additionally, the portrayal of Mr. Wonka as a quirky, eccentric, millionaire businessman is far less likely to have happened after the Turn of the Millennium, in which the image of the "Quirky wealthy guy" changed to a much more ruthless sociopathic vision of corrupt mean spirited Karma Houdinis who can buy their way out of anything and are out of touch with what the acutal world thinks of them or what their money could be used to fix.

Should this one also be removed?

Implying Wonka isn't already a corrupt, mean spirited karma houdini...

Anyway I feel like we've actually discussed this or something similar to it before, and I feel like it was agreed that portraying one single rich guy as eccentric and likable isn't inherently VD. Especially not when you have people like Varuca and her father in the same story, who are both a more modern take on rich people being spoiled and out of touch.

Very well. I would've removed it already knowing what was already discussed before, but I wanted to be sure I wasn't stepping out of line by consulting this thread first.

From YMMV.RWBY. Every single example below can be summarised as "US and Japanese fandoms have different cultures", so it could have been a single entry with a couple of examples tossed in to show the cultural difference. Can this be rewritten as a single entry?

• Values Dissonance:
  • The Japanese fandom doesn't like the "crab stance" some female characters take, especially when they're wearing skirts; splaying knees and toes outwards is considered unladylike and not part of the Acceptable Feminine Goals and Traits that women are expected to have. Societal norms and a greater preference for skirt-wearing than in some Western societies means that Japanese fans tend to critique exaggerated limb spreading more than many Western fans do.
  • Ozpin's big speech in Volume 2 regarding "unity through diversity" resulted in a lot of comments by Japanese fans that "You can tell this was written by an American". Japanese society tends to strongly value conformity and not standing out among your peers.
  • In the first episode of Volume 3, Nora belches loudly after eating a bowl of ramen. While this is considered bad table manners in general, the crude and unladylike point of the belch doesn't work so well as a joke as in Japan, so they decided to change it into a modest "Guhhh!" for the Japanese dub.
  • Ruby telling Yang she loves her at the end of Volume 3 was said to be "very American" by Japanese viewers since those sorts of expressions are not very common in the culture.
  • During the dinner scene in Volume 5, Ruby gestures and points at Ren with her chopsticks, which was uncomfortable viewing for fans from Asian cultures where this behavior is regarded as rude table etiquette. Because Ruby's table manners were not perceived to be a problem within the US, where the show is made, Japanese fans suggested that Rooster Teeth should have someone on staff who can educate the creators on table manners with chopsticks.
  • Blake's Declaration of Protection to Yang in Volume 6 came off as very romantic to Japanese viewers. While both the eastern and western interpretations of this statement ignore the reason Yang is mad at her in the first place - the fact that Blake abandoned her loved ones without a word, and has still not acknowledged this - some viewers interpreted Yang's anger at it being the implication that she couldn't protect herself, which at least one of them described as "very American."

Suggested rewrite:

• Values Dissonance: The different cultural norms between the US and Japan means that Japanese fans sometimes struggle with events, character behaviours and decisions made within the show. Examples include: Ozpin's Volume 2 speech emphasising diversity, when Japanese culture values conformity; Ruby telling Yang she loves her in Volume 3, something Japanese fans regarded as "very American"; Ruby gesticulating with chopsticks during dinner, which offended many Japanese viewers into suggesting Rooster Teeth learn Japanese chopstick etiquette; and Blake's Declaration of Protection to Yang being seen as very romantic by Japanese fans, who didn't understand why Yang was offended.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 11th 2022 at 7:18:35 AM

Im not sure i see the need to condense it into a single entry

I mean, all the bullets are about the difference between Asian and Western countries. It makes sense to put them all in one single bullet.

Edited by SoyValdo7 on Dec 11th 2022 at 5:14:38 AM

They are all different examples of things over which the cultures clash, though. I prefer leaving the entry as-is so that anyone who doesn't know about these differences beforehand has some actual meat to read about.

Right, the condensed version doesn't actually explain why Japan and America disagreed, just that they did.

Okay, fair enough; it just seemed like an awfully indulgent way of saying that a US show is full of examples that regularly baffle Japanese fandoms due to cultural differences.

I think you can at least remove "very American", "You can tell this was made by an American", and the like. Those specific phrases are redundant.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Dec 11th 2022 at 5:39:46 AM

Also, I'm not sure it needs a rewrite, but saying that the creators "need" to learn Japanese chopsticks etiquette based on how a character in a Constructed World not based on Japan used chopsticks is one of the more bizarre examples I've ever seen for the trope. Like, the fact that it was an actual complaint certainly makes it tropeworthy, but it's really weird.

Maybe, but if they are how the fans reacted, then... eh.

What we might need is an intro explaining the basic gist of these things, which can then incorporate the "very American" criticism.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 11th 2022 at 8:17:14 AM

Ruby has really bad table manners in general. It's never really pointed out in-universe, but it's been consistently shown ever since the pilot episode — she'll scoff food greedily, talk with her mouth full, wave cutlery around while talking, snatch two sandwiches and scoff them together when everyone else just takes one... and wave chopsticks around when talking. So, it's very much a thing that Ruby has bad table manners by multiple cultural standards (she'd never survive a meal with my family, and I'm British). However, the Japanese fandom probably isn't going to know that, but the chopsticks scene will stand out to them. That said, it's true that this a fantasy world, and while the continent of Anima is loosely based on the Asian continent (so there's inspiration from many more Asian countries than just China or Japan... and ancient Greece and Rome thrown in, too), there's no attempt to make it follow the same rules we'd follow in real life. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, but it definitely shouldn't be expected.

What about this as a rewrite?

Values Dissonance: The different cultural norms between the US and Japan means that Japanese fans sometimes struggle with events, character behaviours and decisions made within the show, often mentioning that the show or characters come across as "very American" to them. Examples include:

• It is common for some of the female characters like Ruby and Nora to take a "crab stance" when excited or battle-ready; their knees and toes splay outwards, which is regarded as inappropriate by Japanese fans. In Japanese media, girls will instead splay their feet, while keeping their knees locked together.
• Ozpin's Volume 2 diversity speech generated comment among Japanese viewers because Japanese society tends to value conformity and not standing out from your peers.
• In Volume 3, Nora belches loudly after eating ramen. While this is considered bad etiquette in general, it doesn't work as a joke in Japan, so the dub changed it to a modest "Guhhh".
• At the end of Volume 3, Japanese viewers observed that Ruby telling Yang she loved her wouldn't commonly occur in Japanese society as such expressions are rarely used.
• During dinner in Volume 5, Ruby gestures and points at Ren with her chopsticks; this is extremely rude behaviour in Japan, so many Japanese fans found the scene uncomfortable to watch.
• Blake's Volume 6 Declaration of Protection to Yang comes across as very romantic to Japanese viewers. Western reactions tend to regard Yang's offence as being about the implication she can't protect herself whereas Japanese reactions tend to be confused about why Yang would be offended at all.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 12th 2022 at 6:53:33 AM

Came across this on ValuesDissonance.Web Media:

• Lobo (Webseries): While Lobo kind of deserved it, him getting raped by a female alien felt misandrist.

This is worded in a very... uncomfortable way. I'm not familiar with the work so I can't comment on whether it's really Values Dissonance, but this entry feels like it has its priorities skewed, to put it kindly.

Agreed that it's weird. YMMV.Lobo Webseries is crosswick-ed but stated in the reverse, that the misandry comes from the rape being presented as deserved, rather than just the audience thinking it deserved?

Edited by Malady on Dec 16th 2022 at 10:23:30 AM