Misused: The Jester

Options look good.

Yes, if rename is chosen the definition wouldn't have to change, unless we make a "change definition" option that also gets consensus.

Rename on it's own though is just... a rename.

So I just re-read the description, and I think The Jester might actually be about literal court jesters? The laconic agrees with OP's description of the trope, but as we know laconics are often wrong. Pretty much every paragraph in the description makes gestures towards royal courts and clownish behavior or appearance, and references to the trope in other trope descriptions imply this as well.

I don't think we actually have a trope for court jesters on their own. I would argue that the Court Jester is a classic medieval/fantasy archetype along the lines of Princess Classic or Knight in Shining Armor. They have a distinctive appearance (the classic harlequin costume) as well as distinctive charcaterization as a troll who is able to speak truth to power via Refuge in Audacity.

This bit from Standard Royal Court describes pretty succinctly what the Court Jester archetype is about:

If that's the case, maybe this needs a split?

Yes, It talks a lot about literal jesters, but also about them getting away with saying things. There's heavy emphasis on them getting away with what they say because they aren't taken seriously. It's part of the court jester archetype but I feel like there's more emphasis on that than on "jesters exist".

Like...where in the description are you getting that this is more about actual jesters and less about how the character acts?

My read on the description is that it is equally about the Jester's ability to speak truth to power, and his appearance and outward behavior as a silly fool. Examples that have only the latter may simply be lacking context.

As others have pointed out in the thread, the aspects of how The Jester acts have heavily overlap with Refuge in Audacity and Honest Advisor. The thing that are unique about the archetype are the character's role as an entertainer in a royal court, and the stylized harlequin costume that they often wear.

Many of the examples that are characterized in the wick check as "Jesters Exist" in fact point to characters with distinctive roles in a royal court or a highly stylized harlequin visual motif. These examples may not fit the letter of the trope, but I don't think they are meaningless, and they don't really fit in other tropes.

TL;DR: Right now The Jester = clown at royal court + jester outfit + speaks truth to power via humor. Are all of these required, or should examples with only some of them be allowed? Which ones?

In that case the trope is all of those things combined. But with the emphasis on what's being said it felt more to me like it was describing a character archetype that originated with jesters, rather than something specifically about jesters. The distinctive appearances and stuff might be noteworthy, but then the description would need a serious rewrite to explain what the trope actually is and not just "Jesters existed once and this is how they acted sometimes".

It just feels weird to say this is a trope that's just...about jesters existing...and that the attitude part isn't a major part of the trope when that's the thing that keeps getting mentioned. To me the jester part was the side-part and seemed more like where the archetype began rather than the main focus.

Currently sick, so I'm too tired to think of anything related to proposals, but the "can often speak freely under the guise of silliness" part of what was previously quoted sounds like Obfuscating Stupidity.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I could have misunderstood that part.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 9th 2020 at 6:52:10 AM

Jesters as a concept may not be tropeworthy alone. But the character type of a a truth-teller wrapped in humility and humor is not exclusive to jesters. There's a conflict.

@naturalironist: You do have a point there. "This profession exist" is not a trope, but when the profession in question is tightly linked to a certain attitude, characteristic or stereotype, that could work as its own trope, even if those particular traits are not limited to the profession.

I guess it's something along the same lines as Tomboy Princess—Tomboy is a trait that can encompass any class or profession, and "A Princess" is not a trope, but the two combined is.

As for the required components for The Jester, I guess either 1+3 or 2+3?

Edited by Adept on Aug 18th 2020 at 2:25:46 AM

That's really the thing here, isn't it? Is it more important to focus on the attitude, or the stereotypes associated with Jesters, or both?

I'll add this to the still-nonexistent crowner:

• Split into two tropes, one about the personality type and one about actual jesters.

Should there also be a more specific option for retooling it to be specifically about jesters, and maybe moving the other stuff elsewhere?

Anyone?

It seems like the things that have been discussed here are:

• Retool The Jester into being about a character who uses humor to speak truth to power
• Retool The Jester into being about the Medieval Stock Character
• Rename to something more indicative, regardless of which direction the trope goes
• Cut and merge The Jester with Honest Advisor and/or Refuge in Audacity.

1 + 2 would be a split.

Edited by naturalironist on Aug 8th 2020 at 6:21:42 AM

Y'know, I thought if the first option would happen I'd come up with the name "Wisecracking Seer" just in case, but now I'm not so sure...

Personally, I support a split, with the Stock Character keeping the name The Jester and the original idea getting a new name. Maybe "Criticizing With Comedy" might work?

Options look good for a crowner.

Should we just add a "split into the two discussed trope ideas" option so we don't need to worry about the potential double-consensus thing, or nah? I'm good either way.

I agree, except if both 1 and 2 would lead to a split, that should be explicitly stated instead of implied.

Either that, or list the split separately.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 17th 2020 at 12:48:09 PM

Yeah sure, make split a separate option.

'ight, here's that crowner then:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/crowner.php/PageAction/TheJester?open=all#nnhth1sr

Hooked.

Do we need to wait longer? The crowner seems pretty conclusive.

I suggest that the Stock Character trope be renamed Court Jester. No ideas for the other trope.

I would suggest something along the lines of "Comedic Criticism", but that seems like it'd be easily confused with comedic review shows and the like...