Looks good so far. Disambig to No Holding Back Speech and Heroic Motivation Speech, I think — with that inbound count, we probably can't cut it.
(she/her)
Yeah that makes sense, those two and other tropes in "World of Cardboard" Speech's description. I see some examples of Break Them by Talking and other speech tropes. The only commonality in the examples is that the "hero makes a speech of some sort" and that is basically what the description boils down to.
I am in the beginning of the Anime/Manga section of the examples atm and already a lot of them don't look like belong on the same trope so I am having trouble finding good examples for the drafts. So far only the first bullet of the Bleach example belongs on Heroism Motive Speech.
- At one point in the Attack on Titan anime, Eren can't bring himself to fight because of recent revelations creating subconscious doubt and the fact that he's been severely injured. His friends try to make him see sense, each in their own way characteristic to them. Mikasa simply says that "The world is a cruel place" and that there is no other option: it's fight or die. Armin tells Eren "Someone who can't sacrifice anything can never hope to change anything" and encourages him to abandon his humanity to combat an inhuman threat. Jean brusquely reminds him that everyone's trusting him enough to give their lives for him and that if they stop now, Marco's death will mean nothing. By the time Eren finishes, we're given a summary of everything that's influenced him and motivates him to keep going on, including the discussion of choices he had with Levi and being forced to live with the consequences.
Armin: [earlier] Someone who can't sacrifice anything can never hope to change anything.
Eren: [internal monologue] I know that... that's why I failed. I clung to my companions and my ties to them, and I failed. [I need to] remember... [flashbacks of fallen Survey Corps members and his mother getting eaten* (angrily) I'll wipe you all out... no, I'll kill you! There's no time to figure out if this is the right thing to do! Don't try to keep your hands clean! That's right... this world... is cruel!!! [cue Unstoppable Rage and Titan transformation]'' - In the dub of Bakuten Shoot Beyblade, Kai gives an awesome one before defeating Brooklyn.
Kai: Kai. That's my name. And I'm a beyblader. And you might think you are, but you're not. You learned from the best but you forgot a very important lesson. Beyblading isn't just about overpowering your opponent with fancy moves. That's only part of the game. There's more to it than that. Much more. That's why I have something you don't. I have learned from every battle I fought. Every friend, enemy, and spectator always had something to offer me. And I'm a student to this game. And I always will be. With the hardships of training, competitions, the wins and the losses, they all taught me something. And I've taken that knowledge and used it to my advantage. That's why I can say, that I'm a true beyblader. That's what keeps me going. And that's my strength. I don't think you ever will (understand). Because you're not a true beyblader. You have the power and the skill, but something is missing from inside you. You don't have the beyblading spirit! That's why I have to win this battle! Because beyblading means more to me than you could ever understand! IT'S NOT JUST A GAME TO ME! FINISH HIM NOW DRANZER!"
- Bleach:
- Ichigo tells Ishida about losing his mother, and after seeing his father and sisters suffer as a result, not wanting anyone else to feel the same. He states that he can't save everyone, but wants to protect as many people as he can, which makes Ishida reflect on his grandfather's teachings and accept his offer to fight the Hollows together.
- Ichigo again at the end of the Deicide Arc having attained full control of his power after properly communing with his Zanpakutou. Able to literally wipe out mountains with a casual sword swing, he calmly tells Aizen that he has surpassed him in strength and is tired of Aizen's speeches. Made all the more awesome given at this point, Aizen and Ichigo are the two most powerful characters in the series, even surpassing Yamamoto (pre-Bankai).
- In the manga version of Bokurano, Takami "Komo" Komoda, who was lonely and detached from the world for much of her childhood, plays the piano as part of a plan to lure out the enemy pilot, who has fled from his robot. She gives an internal monologue about everything she has noticed about the world, and how she considers it beautiful and something that could only come about as a result of a miracle.
Komo: Thank you everyone. If only I had noticed what exactly surrounds me sooner. But it's okay, now that I have noticed. Noticed the world.
- Rolo of Code Geass overcomes his training as a tool due to his feelings of brotherly love for Lelouch, enabling him to utilize his Geass so effectively he wipes out entire squadrons of Knightmares. Even as the strain is killing him, he's happily explaining how Lelouch has finally made it possible for him to feel like a human.
Edited by MacronNotes on Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:50:02 AM
Macron's notes
(she/her)
Also do we need a new crowner to decide what to do to "World of Cardboard" Speech? Here are two options for now. Theres probably more.
- Rename "World of Cardboard" Speech and restrict the description to "A hero makes a speech about over coming their issues"
- Turn into a disambig
Ramen Chef's "misuse" folder contains some "this is why I'm doing hero stuff", e.g. Metal Gear Solid. Not many, but probably enough for a trope. Several are potholes, so they're unclear.
Let's see. Assuming we're going with the concepts of No Holding Back Speech and Motivation For Heroism Speech already
- rename and restrict "World of Cardboard" Speech to "hero makes a speech about overcoming their issues".
- restrict "World of Cardboard" Speech to "hero makes a speech about overcoming their issues" but don't rename.
- (re)move all examples on "World of Cardboard" Speech and turn it into a disambig.
- (re)move all examples on "World of Cardboard" Speech and cut it.
(she/her)
No Longer Holding Back Speech
and Heroism Motive Speech TL Ps
I will try those wicks for Heroism Motive Speech I am having a harder time finding examples for No Longer Holding Back Speech. I was said on the TLP for that trope is that its the same as "as a hero making a speech about how much they grown and overcame their challenges. The trope naming Superman speech was him saying he no longer had to hold back fighting that particular villain because they were too evil to be redeemed.
And the crowner options look good.
Edited by MacronNotes on Mar 3rd 2020 at 12:57:59 PM
Macron's notes
(she/her)
This is late but on the "No Longer Back" Speech draft. Nubian Satyress explained that the Justice League quote is about Superman trying to overcome a personal roadblock. But I think only people who are familiar with the Justice League series would know that and it looks like the trope was based around that one example (which is where all the problems with this trope comes from).
I don't know what to do with the draft anymore as it doesnt seem to match what "World of Cardboard" Speech was trying to be.
Maybe we can have "Rename and rewrite "World of Cardboard" Speech" to be about characters talking about how they overcame their struggles?" as a potential crowner option? And then the general Hero Motivation Speech (draft for that is in the TLP) will be split off.
Edited by MacronNotes on Mar 28th 2020 at 9:59:36 AM
Macron's notes
If No Holding Back doesn't have enough examples, then it's not worth making a trope. The few examples can go under The Gloves Come Off and/or Let's Get Dangerous!
Yeah, the thread was talking about a rename for this. Someone pointed out that it suffers from trope namer syndrome AND isn't even an example of the trope.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 28th 2020 at 10:20:03 AM
The page for "World of Cardboard" Speech lists a lot of different examples of correct uses of the trope where it is about the hero overcoming their issues rather than either not holding back or a motive for heroism. If we got rid of Worldof Cardboard Speech, where would all of these correct examples go? I feel like it is a legitimate trope.
They stay, but likely they'll be under a name that actually describes the trope.
(she/her)
Added makeshifted TRS banner to World Of Card Board Speech.
Potential crowner options:
- Split Heroism Motive Speech off of World Of Card Board Speech and redefine the latter as "a character talks about their hardships and how they overcame them
- Rename "World of Cardboard" Speech
- Do nothing.
Anything else?
Macron's notes
What's the reason you nuked the "No More Holding Back" Speech TLP?
(she/her)
It wasn't gathering examples and wasn't sure if it was worth seperating from The Gloves Come Off and Let's Get Dangerous!
Edited by MacronNotes on May 11th 2020 at 5:35:01 AM
Macron's notes
How about the "I'm Better Than I Used To Be" Speech? Or "Through My Strength, I Shall Overcome" or something along those lines?
resident girlfail
I'd prefer keeping it as is.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Discussions about the name and stuff should ideally be left to the TLP drafts themselves.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
(she/her)
I think those name suggestions are for "World of Cardboard" Speech itself.
In any case, I guess the suggestions for the second crowner that were posted earlier are fine then?
Macron's notes
We also have I Am Not Left-Handed. What are the distinction between that and "No More Holding Back" Speech?
(she/her)
I already discarded the draft I had for it for overlapping with existing tropes and I wasnt able to find more than one example
Macron's notes
(she/her)
So I keep bumping the Heroism Motive Speech to get feedback but nothing is happening now. I did add some examples from Cardboard Speech but I am too overwhelmed to look through every subpage and sort stuff by myself right now.
Macron's notes
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I've said it before and I'll say it again: The TLP is allergic to giving feedback and a lot of drafts suffer for it. Personally though I haven't said much because I'm not sure what I can say or add to the conversation.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
(she/her)
It happens a lot on TLP and its sad but nothing we can do. Not everyone is going to be able to have something or have examples to offer. I only contribue when I can add something.
TRS threads that require drafts are one of the hardest types of TRS threads to resolve because we have to wait for someone to send the drafts to the TLP, we can't move forward until the trope(s) launches, and the sponsors for those drafts often get burned out.
Macron's notes
7 to 8 legitimate examples was what was left for Heroism Motive Speech after mining the misuse from "World of Cardboard" Speech?
(she/her)
(she/her)
I didn't mine every subpage as honestly it was a lot for me I got sidestracked with other projects admittedly. I just thought the draft would be more active on TLP.
I will see if I can find anything by skimming it. But a lot of examples were of the "hero has a speech about overcoming something"
Macron's notes
Crown Description:
Vote up for yes, down for no.
Also what happens to "World of Cardboard" Speech once I launch the TL Ps? Disambiguation? I know we said to just keep this as "the hero talks about their struggles and overcoming them" but the example on the pages seem to be all over the place. At the very we might need to rename because as pointed out earlier, the Superman comic that the trope is named for doesnt even match the laconic or the description.
Edited by MacronNotes on Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:18:56 PM
Macron's notes