On the subject of pre-release work pages

I'd be for banning pre-release YMMV Pages, but what about the following:

• Tainted by the Preview / And the Fandom Rejoiced: by definition it only applies pre-release.
• Holy Shit Quotient and Internet Backdraft: by definition, about abrupt reactions that die down (thought I've said before Internet Backdraft needs something to keep it objective since it's complaining by definition otherwise)
• What about Story Arcs or season where it ends months or years after it first release and thus much could change.

I propose rather than banning pre-release, we put waiting periods on tropes (like Base-Breaking Character has six months), thoughts?

The first two bullet points' reactions can be added post-release just as easily. I'm confused by the point you're trying to make with the third bullet.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

YMMV pages for yet-to-be-released works should be banned outright. They cause too much stupid drama.

I would prefer to not blanket ban the main work pages. They generate traffic and you can trope the trailers even if they often lie.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Pages for unreleased works (movies, games, etc) have always annoyed me and I would be very glad if they were gone. WMGs can stay, I guess.

The one exception would be for cancelled games/movies which are still available to the public in some form (prototypes, scripts).

If we keep pre-release trope pages, could there be a blacklist for tropes that would absolutely be prohibited from being listed pre-release?

e.g. Sir Not-Appearing-in-This-Trailer, Darker and Edgier and Lighter and Softer, Actionized Sequel, etc.

(I'm just trying to map out the implementations of each of the options that came up in this thread)

Edited by Albert3105 on Feb 16th 2019 at 6:56:44 AM

I have a question: Should we use pre-release tropes when production has officially begun (i.e. for films, anime) if necessary?

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.

The only kind of pre-release trope that could be used reliably based solely on pre-release information that I can think of is Development Hell. What else would you have in mind?

I can't think of any, and Development Hell is trivia anyhow.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Do you mean "before any trailers are released?"

In regards to the "fine line" WarJay77 and crazysamaritan mentioned, I said it would be when production starts earlier, if that helps.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

So what does "production" mean? Rough drafts, concept sketches, outlines, storyboards, contracts? This rule isn't just about movies, it's games, novels, television series, and more. Creators like to build hype, and they'll tease about upcoming projects on social media and in interviews. That excites people into "this work doesn't exist, but maybe one day it will!"

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Production as in filming, voice recording, finalizing animation frames, beta testing for video games, sound mixing for music, and other things I didn't mention.

Books are different in that it is hard to tell when production has started. I'd say it's in production if it is to be released later that year and given a definite release date.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

I agree with what was said in this post:

With the added caveat that Darth Wiki pages can and should be made in the second stage. The tropeless (and probably locked) main page should have a line directing people to add tropes to the Darth Wiki page for the work.

As far as how to draw the line for "production has started", I would say it should involve some public release of tropeable material, not just interviews from creators. This is stuff like trailers, concept art, posters, editors proofs (for a book), etc.

YMMV pages for pre-release works are more trouble than it's worth.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

We can't always lock the page. If a base game is already out, but it has upcoming DLC, people should still be able to trope the base game.

This is commented out under YMMV.Anthem 2019:

• Audience-Alienating Premise: The fact that Bioware is creating an Action Multiplayer Game instead of an RPG was enough to turn many fans off immidiately when it was announced. The fact that it is a completely new IP instead of another Dragon Age or Mass Effect didn't help matters.

Normally, I'd cut since we've established Audience-Alienating Premise must wait until it releases to see if they get alienated, it's just Tainted by the Preview until then. But given the reception to the demo...

Is it worth leaving commented out in case it comes to pass? Or should I just cut?

I'd switch it to Tainted by the Preview since it's valid for that trope, as it's followers negatively receiving the game from merely being told what Bioware was doing.

Edited by Albert3105 on Feb 17th 2019 at 1:05:15 AM

That all seems sensible, except for the assertion that Darth Wiki pages can and "should" be created. They CAN be if people really want to, but I don't think there's any "should" there, and I don't think there's any need to promote their creation by linking to them in the tropeless pre-release page. At MOST, those in-production works that DO have Darth Wiki pages could have a commented-out line in the tropeless main page directing people there, but there's no need for it on the live, public version of the page.

Edited by HighCrate on Feb 17th 2019 at 1:57:57 AM

YMMV.Anthem 2019:

• Never Live It Down: Just like how Mass Effect Andromeda was forever remembered and ridiculed for its horrible facial animations, Anthem is already being remembered and ridiculed for its constant loading screens, no matter how many times Bioware tries to patch it.

It's been less than a week, this seems too soon to call. How long before we can decide if an example?

Burn it, it's nothing but directly mocking the work (which isn't what TV Tropes YMMV sections are about). Loads and Loads of Loading could be mentioned on the main work page though, as long as the mockery itself doesn't end up in the example.

Edited by Albert3105 on Feb 25th 2019 at 7:13:27 AM

It seems like we're coming to agreement here. Should a crowner be made?

It would be nice if this thread could eventually result in a formal policy.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

A quick count tells me that about 16 different users (I may have counted wrong) have posted in this thread, which is a much too small sample size to determine a consensus, especially since people in favor of this ruling are more likely to make their voices heard than people who don't mind how the wiki currently is, leading to skewed numbers.

I feel that before anything discussed in this thread gets officially ruled, there should be a very clear consensus that the majority of the site's users would favor them. As in, there should be dozens, perhaps hundreds, of votes, and with a clear majority favoring this rule (e.g. 10 in favor, 2 against would be insufficient, and so would 51 in favor, 49 against).

After all, this would be a major ruling that could result in hundreds of pages getting deleted.

My opinions:

• I disagree with banning all unreleased work pages. The trope name Trailers Always Lie should not be taken at face value: although trailers sometimes mislead, some tropes are pretty clearly going to be in the movie if they're in the promotional material. If the poster shows a character with a huge sword, then it should be safe to add BFS to the page.
• I also disagree with completely banning YMMV pages for unreleased works, since some Audience Reactions are inherently about pre-release perception (for example: And the Fandom Rejoiced, Epileptic Trees, Tainted by the Preview). But I would be in favor of restricting most YMMV items from being added to these pages.
• What I COULD get behind is locking the most pages that attract the most problems, and requiring proposed additions to go through the locked page edit request thread.

Edited by Zuxtron on Feb 26th 2019 at 6:33:55 AM

Policy-related threads like this are lucky to get 20 participants, there's no way you're going to get 100+.

If we can't prove that there's more than a vocal minority asking for unreleased work pages to be banned, we shouldn't do anything. It's better to have a few dozen users frustrated than to risk angering hundreds.

I'm personally against banning pages for unreleased works. Trailers Always Lie should not be taken at face value and if the trailers and promotional material make it clear a certain trope is going to be in the work, it's safe to add it. While unreleased work pages often attract Speculative Troping and knee-jerk complaining, as long as it doesn't get too out of hand it should be fine. If a certain page for an unreleased work is causing problems, we can just lock it until the work is released. Though I believe there are certain Audience Reactions that shouldn't allow pre-release examples such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, The Scrappy, and Overshadowed by Controversy since these four are often used for knee-jerk reactions, it's too early to determine the overall fandom reaction to a character or aspect about the work based on pre-release material, and for Overshadowed by Controversy, it's too early to determine whether the controversy will end up overshadowing the work's merits.

Edited by ADrago on Feb 26th 2019 at 7:16:32 AM

Works pages for unreleased works are already disallowed according to Works' Pages Are a Free Launch.

As long as these people and their works exist, are published (unpublished works have their own dark little corner), and are not porn, then they have a right to a page.

Unreleased works are, by definition, not published.

All we're talking about is actually enforcing a rule that's already on the books.

Edited by HighCrate on Feb 26th 2019 at 4:37:49 AM