Hunger Games Simulation: Beyond the Possibilities

In response to NTC's suggestion to increase the number of podium spots, overall season production time slowing down in general was to be expected when we shifted to the New Sim, but the last two season's severe delays were outliers that were beyond our control. However, we didn't quite factor in the recently changed hosting rules^note technically they were always there, but it was only recently that we decided to officially lay them down, specifically that we shouldn't pressure the hosts into rushing things as much as possible, so your argument about the delays worsening the wait time for the BR is valid.

As for retroactively including the 4th and maybe 5th placers in the Hall of Fame, I think it might make some people happy, but on the other hand, it might make them upset that they weren't recognized as PFs back in the day. But then again, there are other people who don't mind getting 4th or 5th because at least their tributes made it that far and/or had a "memorable" run. However, a special season dedicated to the previous 4th and/or 5th placers sounds interesting, but should it be a canon season or just a side story?

My thoughts on this matter.

Edited by MummyGaGa on Sep 9th 2023 at 9:50:31 AM

Tbh, at this point I'm not opposed to expanding PFs to include 4th and 5th placers. Considering we tend to have nearly 100 tributes in a season now (and at the rate at which we've been getting newbies lately, we may well exceed 100 tributes a season soon), it does legitimately feel a bit off-balance to me to have that many tributes a season and still only qualify three out of that large number.

Actually, this is the planned poll that we might be doing, which is subject to change like Jake's:

It's an attempt to merge the two polls, something that we struggled with the first time around. What do you think?

I mostly suggest the two polls because of how I feel people could care more about the number of tributes rather the method on how to increase tributes within a BR season or vise versa. Like here, I feel like most people care far more about the method of how to increase the tributes within a BR season rather than how many tributes there should be within a BR season.

Because of that, I feel like it would better to just do two polls for the people who would only care the number of BR tributes or the method of how to increase the tributes within a BR season (or at the very least, care far more greatly about one option or the other).

Edited by MummyGaGa on Sep 9th 2023 at 11:14:09 AM

I think there should be more PFers, the 4th place curse has gone on too long!

Edited by TheRealBerdly on Sep 9th 2023 at 1:24:25 PM

For what it's worth, I am pro-keeping the system we have right now - that is, twenty seasons to a BR cycle, three-tribute podiums. At this point I feel I'm definitely in the minority, but I want to write this anyway, just so my reasoning is clear.

Here's an opinion of mine that would likely be controversial even in less decisive circumstances, but is also core to why I feel the way I do. I think viewing the HGS as purely a competition to get Hall of Fame places is going about it in completely the wrong way. For me, it was never about winning - or even particularly about my own tributes. The HGS is nothing but a very wordy random number generator at root, so to be concerned entirely with your placements in a game that's never required any skill but pure dumb luck^note cheaters notwithstanding, obviously always struck me as pointless.

The point of HGS is the stories. The whole reason we submit all these elaborate custom events to begin with is because we want to make the story of these tributes more interesting, regardless of where they place. After all, there's no point fussing over victory in something entirely randomised, but that same total randomisation is what sells the narrative aspect - you have no idea what might happen next, and that's the appeal of it!

A heatedly contested three-tribute podium, to me, is less about the Hall of Fame, which is little more than a token extra, and more a way to add a sense of drama to the aforementioned story. The small size makes it feel more like an accomplishment of note when you do land a podium finisher - and, feel free to kill me for this, the long droughts followed by celebration when you FINALLY get another winner are a part of that as well. To expand the size of the podium is to excise a little bit of that drama and tension, and thus to excise a little bit of my entire reason for being here.

There was concern that the twelve-season, three-PF system was giving too few nominators a chance with the expanded cast sizes, which was valid. At the same time, I voted to lengthen the BR cycle and not extend the podiums because it was the best compromise between those concerns and my personal belief that the HGS needs the tension of a small, hard-to-reach podium to be at its most enjoyable. Jake's statistics suggest we've ended up with more nominators competing in this BR than we would have if we did S273-285 with five-tribute podiums, so there's not really an argument that it's still unfair to be had; the only point really worth arguing over IMHO is the length of the cycles, which I can tolerate because, again, it was never really about desperately craving BR slots to me. I actually quite enjoy them being rarer, becasue more new tributes have chances to shine this way!

One more thing...

In the grand scheme of HGS history, the "first come first served" method wasn't the thing in need of changing, it was what we changed to. The OG originally worked on the reserve system, then eventually switched to first-come-first-served once there were enough nominators that reserves never made it in any more, then in the later Reboot we eventually switched back after ever-growing nominator numbers made first-come-first-served totally untenable. We tried something new, found out that it had glaring issues the system we had to begin with was already accounting for, and made that change up until the new sim made cast size limitations a thing of the past. You've picked basically the worst example possible for both the idea that we're "change-o-phobic"^note ...come on, really? and for the idea that impulsive, sweeping changes are always going to be good in the long term.

Well said on expanding on the Second Place Is for Winners aspect, Kaf. I agree with everything you've said here. Statistically speaking, 3/48 = 6.25% chance of getting a PF per season pre-New Sim (assuming you nominate only one tribute), while 4/85^note the rough average number of tributes in a regular season post-New Sim and 5/85 = 4.71% and 5.88% post-New Sim if we're expanding the qualifying podium placements, which are smaller than the first one, but still greater than 3/85 = 3.53%. But even if the number crunching shows that it's still a low probability that amps up the tension, I've long accepted that missing out on the BR is normal. I can always fall back on a Mass Murderer for the Death Battle, but if not, there are a few tributes of mine whom I consider honorable mentions, like Neroli last season for his feud with this very thread and ironically, his dreams of becoming an MM being shattered at the last minute.

Edited by TroperNo9001 on Sep 10th 2023 at 3:17:54 AM

Now that 9001 mentioned the probability of getting podium finishers, yeah, I agree with making it Top 4 or 5, too.

Just as an extra note - I'd have a "grin and bear it" kind of response to the adoption of a 12-season cycle and five-tribute podiums (even if i'd be tempted to say any tributes of mine who got on the HoF with a fourth or fifth place finish didn't "really" win), but I'm definitely NOT in favour of a longer BR cycle and larger podiums. That's just complete overkill.

After reading up on all this, I agree and think we should just have one or the other, yeah.

While your hesitation is understandable, Kafka, I still feel that extending the podiums rather than the BR cycle is a better solution, and that increasing the number of seasons isn't actually a solution at all.

If you want a fun, casual thing where the point isn't winning, then... Well, why have the Battle Royale cycles and Hall of Fame in the first place? Why have special seasons exclusively for people who've gotten lucky in the recent past where no one else is allowed to participate? We don't reserve seasons for tributes who got cool stories, nor do we put special entries for them on the wiki; they're generally just forgotten. The system encourages competition already. The least we can do is make it a fairer one.

Regarding "feels like more of an accomplishment"... That's a lot easier to say when you've got years of old-sim experience and relatively easy podium finishers under your belt. But honestly, I should get to feel accomplished when my tributes beat odds that old-sim ones never had to face (e.g. Kaidan beating a 2-in-45 shot at making 4th place in a 90-tribute season). It's like getting a natural 20 in Dungeons & Dragons only to be denied your critical hit because of concealment or something.

I'd also like to highlight this specific statement:

That is completely untrue. The tributes given "chances to shine" in the longer BR cycles would have still gotten them; just in a later BR in the cycle. Like I said, we're just waiting longer to give them chances to shine and ignoring that more of them are crashing and burning.

Now, to address what 9k1 said... Yeah, I get that the latest two seasons were exceptional events, though the slowed pace remains (from what I've seen, seasons usually have about ten updates, which takes a little over three days with the old three-a-day schedules but five days with the two-a-day schedule that's now preferred). As for re-evaluating old 4th- and 5th-placers, while it may not be satisfying enough to people, what alternative would be? And for the compensation BR, I wasn't sure how to do it - in-thread would make it feel more official, but also further delay getting back to regular nominations. I'd like more thoughts on what would be ideal.

Edited by NineTailedCat on Sep 9th 2023 at 2:11:20 AM

The very first Battle Royale was held in OG Season 9, more than seven years ago, and it was just agreed on a whim by the small handful of players back then (me included), because "why not?" We didn't consider the long-term implications of doing this, even after switching to the New Sim, which is why it ended up becoming a "tradition" of this thread. While there was another person before NTC who was as seriously frustrated with the old system as him, honestly, we wouldn't be having this debate (or the one last BR) if it weren't for NTC himself.

As for the "sense of accomplishment", is this like EA's controversial statement on why Star Wars: Battlefront has lootboxes? Because unlike that game, there's no monetary loss in this endeavor, but the shame that some people get for not getting those coveted PFs in a long time is still there.

And while posting two updates a day is preferred nowadays, it's at least two updates a day. There's no stopping the host from posting more than that if they can; the minimum's just there for the sake of mitigating stalling.

Regarding "compensation BRs", it has been suggested on Discord that the BR as it currently is should be relegated to its Side Stories channel or the old Side Stories thread if the Main thread is supposed to focus more on the story than the competition. On the other hand, we also floated around some alternatives to make the BR more inclusive while still being canon. Examples include a Winners vs. Losers Season, a Second Chances Season dedicated to those who died early, or making the BR a "themed season" where the PFs are locked in, but those without any can still nominate as usual thanks to the New Sim's flexible roster.

Personally, I would be down with a "Winners vs. Losers" season, though I would change it to a "Finalists vs. Non-Finalists" season, where anybody that didn't score any PFers can nominate one past tribute of theirs that didn't get a PFer. I'll say "one" because a. I don't want the non-fatalist nominators to have more tributes than a nominator who scored only one PFer in the past couple of seasons, and b. To reward nominators who have scored more than one PFer in the past couple of seasons.

I'll like there to be some competitive aspect to the HGS, but I would like people to be able to participate in every season they want to participate in. I feel this is the best way to do that.

Also, since there's now new options within the past hour or so on what to do with Battle Royale seasons going forward, I feel like we should hold-off on polls until we have more opinions on these options.

EDIT- Actually, now that I think about it, the themed season idea sounds better. If all of us can nominate one tribute for that season, and all of the Podium Finishers shall be included there as well, then that would allow everybody to participate in a Battle Royale season with whoever they want while also rewarding nominators who scored a PFer in the past couple of seasons with a more likely chance to win the Battle Royale season.

Edited by MummyGaGa on Sep 9th 2023 at 6:34:34 AM

I like the idea of themed BRs like Winners vs. Loosers

Edited by PROPLAYEN on Sep 9th 2023 at 3:46:51 AM

I'm going to be honest - if we loosen the standards for what is and isn't a BR this much, I would recommend shunting it to Side Stories at that point, maybe occasionally make one of these ideas a regular Themed Season. Creating a hazy compromise between a BR and a normal season while keeping it on the main thread feels too much like you're trying to please everyone, which never pleases anyone.

Edited by MummyGaGa on Sep 9th 2023 at 7:16:52 AM

After some discussion on Discord, I'm now leaning towards the idea of making Battle Royales more like themed seasons or just having them as side stories. In hindsight, I focused too much on the question of how many people should qualify for winners-only seasons, leaving the question of why we have winners-only seasons at all to a snarky side note when it was the main issue all along. Official seasons should be for everyone, so if we're going to celebrate our winners, we should either let other players participate too or just not interrupt the main thread for it.

For me, the theme-season-like idea is most appealing - it keeps some competitive aspects from the current BR system for people who like them, but doesn't exclude everyone else. My preference would be something like Jake's idea, where everyone gets one or two regular nominees, but the past podium finishers are added in too. In that case, going back to a 12-season cycle with three podium finishers would be fine since they're no longer as much of a big deal and it makes more room for new nominees. As a bonus, we could have Battle Royales and themed seasons or Death Battles at the same time rather than having to put one on hold for the other.

I'm not against the idea of leaving them as side stories either, with occasional optional themed seasons in the main thread. We'd still get our celebrations of winners, but they wouldn't put everyone else's fun on hold, and it'd make the stakes a lot lower and let people focus more on the fun stories than just worrying about winning. Of course, it'd also seriously diminish the importance of podium finishers, and while I don't mind too much, I can see other people being bothered.

In either case, the question of the 4th- or 5th-place compensation season I suggested becomes moot since it'll be fine as a side story for both. If Battle Royales become more like themed seasons, then the runner-ups can get nominated too, whereas if they're side stories, it'd be silly for a runner-up season not to be a side story too. Either way, they're not missing out on as much.

I encourage everyone to consider these options and their potential benefits and drawbacks. The original BR system may have been fine when it was first suggested, but the environment's changed and new options have also become available. Let's not assume the old way's the best just because "it wasn't an issue in the past". I'm not the first person to question it, as 9k1 mentioned; I'm just particularly vocal and persistent about it.

Edited by NineTailedCat on Sep 9th 2023 at 5:18:16 AM

Thank you, everyone, for your feedback and suggestions for improving the Battle Royale. Here's the poll on what changes, if any, we should do this time. This is a multi-option poll, and we might consider the Top 2 options if they're (almost) tied, provided that they're not mutually exclusive. We might also provide follow-up polls depending on the results, and any definite changes to the BR system will take effect in the next one because this season's save has already been set up and currently being run by Kaf. You have ~24 hours to vote.

Sorry for the double post, but Kaf has sent the screens and save to Jake, but he'll start the season sometime after the poll closes.

ETA: Also, us mods considering the Top 2 winners is only a possibility, as even after the poll closes, we'll still have to deliberate on them (or just the Top 1) before we officially declare the best option going forward. This has been the most contentious change to the thread ever, that's why we must think carefully here.

Edited by TroperNo9001 on Sep 11th 2023 at 4:40:14 PM

Apologies for triple-posting, but the poll has been closed. While "replacing the BR with an inclusive version" is the winning option, we mods still have to determine if this will officially take effect next BR (and if so, exactly what kind of alternative it will be) since this one will be starting very soon. The Hall of Fame will still be maintained regardless.

The Reaping

Welcome everyone, to the first ever (and possibly only ever) 61-tribute BR season. Let's begin!

Battle Music- Bentley Jones - Dreams of an Absolution (2011 Version)

The Bloodbath

• Um, I don't think you should get wet with blood there, Nintendo.
• Stock Man manages to avoid getting killed by Lewyn.
• Wait, how can a McRib talk?
• Somehow, I feel like a certain little cricket is going to be happy about Harry dying first.
• Why are you disappointed, Vivian?
• There's stairs in the cornucopia?
• Judgement Boy Gold, did you not pay attention to what happened in Season 292?
• Well, it would be rule-breaking if she really was D'Arby,
• Gex arrives to the arena in a subway train.
• Pythor has a spear now.
• Does anyone want to make fanart of V2 with a rainbow afro wig?
• KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM, CARNAGE!
• Meito, what were you thinking? You can't take-on an entire county by yourself.
• The car has a family?
• Um, the red herring is not round at all.
• And our next victim goes to Padak.
• Somehow, I don't think the Peacekeepers would like that, Yuno.
• Then, why did you killed those two tributes back in Season 292, Sensei?
• And Janky lost his only tribute at the bloodbath.
• Isaac, despite never watching Steven Universe before, thinks Bismuth is the shiz.
• The death count has a chest? Regardless, it is dead now.
• Boudica, why did you think Kretes is a roman? He doesn't even look like somebody that naturally belongs in Earth to begin with.
• The trope is dancing now?
• Oh hey, a surprise appearence from Kafka here.
• Hazel, please. You were a past MM once.
• And it looks like Scarabeus is going to be our technical MM for the season.
• And our final Bloodbath death goes to Wendy!

Day One

• Are those chips tasty, Hazel?
• Um, I think you mean "no shelter for the day",
• Emo is now faster, and can jump higher now.
• Um, Sensei is DEFINITELY NOT six years old.
• Yamato does eight push-ups here.
• Helpers, I don't think Kasil has that power, you know.
• Lewyn, why did you asked that question? Anago is CLEARLY a fish.
• Play princess? Is that some game you pretend that Broque Madame is a princess?
• I doubt that, Nemo. Also, since Nemo is technically a prince, I feel that is a logical question for GoodTimes Entertainment to ask.
• Well, at least, you have something to drink with, Pythor.
• Well, Skeeter's car got destroyed by Mario's truck.
• Well, Tyrone might be able to do his job in the afterlife.
• Well, it looks like no mafia games are going to be held today.
• Whoa! Two back-to-back nominator events here! Also, Nintendo ends up waving to his boyfriend, Soren, as well.
• Given who the High Evolutionary is, I feel he deserved that, and a lot more.
• Chuuya got bought.
• Gex has a nightmare about being timewrecked.
• The McRib disappeares, and re-appears inside somebody's stomach.
• YMMV on that, Bismuth.
• What? Also, Terk ate those jelly beans after going to Det. GC's Detective Agency.
• I don't think a baby would understand that, Pathfinder.
• Deca: "There are only 30 million rocks in this Arena."
• But Darth Vader's theme song doesn't have any lyrics.
• Judgment Boy Gold doesn't like Michael's plan to kill Yuno.

Fallen Tributes - Harry S. Truman, Bootleg Meito Anizawa, Padak, Kousei, President Snow Death Counter, Kretes, All Unused Reserves, Wendy, Tyrone, The Mc Rib

wait where did tyrone and bj come from wat da heck

Nintendo going through his V1 arc real

Fitting Bloodbath event for Carnage.