During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Gloria, and Jerry.
43: Star-Crossed only had him appear at the end. Put Supergirl in the trance and then leave. Sort of a teaser. The bulk of what he does and his appearance is on the Flash.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 26th 2020 at 9:31:12 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
It's Jerry Jasper, I think.
I was looking at the fan wikia. He's called Jerry Jasper.
G even if south park has negative continuity it has enough continuity to establish facts about characters. The established character of Cartman is that he is racist, sexist, anti-semitic. Unless a work comes along to subvert those characteristics, he can't ever count. Simply not having him engage in those behaviors is not enough.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Kk I'll just mark him under "Duet" then.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
43: Sounds good.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I'm gonna have another post or two tonight, but one thing 43 requested I bring up just in case anyone ever wants to bring up DCAU!Darkseid again: the episode "Legacy", released at the end of Superman: The Animated Series' run, has Darkseid brainwash Superman into becoming his slave. One of these moments has Darkseid send the brainwashed-but-clearly reluctant Supes to "enjoy the fruits of his conquest" with an entourage of Female Furies...who we later see him half-dressed in bed with, while they later call him "boy-toy" and "lover" to mock him when he regains his mental agency...
This is as blatant as rape can get on an animated show. The DCAU was softer on radar restrictions compared to most cartoons of the time and sex was implied goddamned everywhere. Even if they never outright say the word "rape", DCAU!Darkseid's a rapist by proxy. He should never, ever be going back up.
Edited by Scraggle on Jul 26th 2020 at 10:10:28 AM
Thank you for putting that down. This, amongst other shit he pulled, really makes me concerned over how far we're willing to go just because someone is cool. CMs of that stature are a terrible pool to fish from, 99% of the time you're just getting caught up in how epic the size of their villainy makes them. I stand by what I said about people giving a quick rubber stamp the second time he was questioned—the solution to avoiding such a statement is not getting upset about it but making sure you're looking at everything when you're going to fight to see a candidate go up or down.
There is a marked difference here between the likes of Jafar or Lilith in Sabrina where some insensitivity can be inferred in the writing, vs. fucking mocking someone about what's hinted to have been sex with someone brainwashed.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 26th 2020 at 12:14:36 PM
Here's my next Elder Scrolls post and this time it's for a character from the 4th game Oblivion. Jim Stacey was the leader of the Thieve's Guild in Morrowind, so now I present the Thieve's Guild leader in the imperial nation of Cyrodiil.
Who is the Gray Fox?
The Gray Fox is the mysterious leader of the Cyrodiil branch of the Thieve's Guild and who's identity is founded almost entirely on exaggerated rumors. The common people believe he can at will turn invisible, shrink down to the side of a mouse, and turn into a mist that can creep through any crack. Even members of the Thieve's Guild believe him to be immortal and to have stolen the legendary Gray Cowl from the Daedric Prince Nocturnal. Like all rumors, there is some truth here as the original founder of the Thieve's Guild stole the Gray Cowl from Nocturnal but was cursed. Anyone who wears the cowl will be cursed to forever be the Gray Fox, and even if they take off the cowl they will appear as a stranger to anyone who sees them and even their name will be forgotten. The cowl is passed down from Master Thief to Master Thief upon the last one's death and the new takes up the identity of the Gray Fox, thus appearing to live for centuries. This curse continued until it was passed to the current Gray Fox, former count and long missing Corvus Umbranox of Anvil.
Under the Gray Fox, the Thieve's Guild operates very much like a underground Robin Hood like organization as they steal from the well off to take care of the beggars and other poor in the Imperials City's waterfront. In fact, committing any sort of crime against someone like a beggar is a serious enough offense to get immediately expelled from the Guild, the equivalent severity of stealing from a fellow guild member or murdering on the job. Unlike the Morrowind Thieve's Guild, the Gray Fox has to keep his branch for more secretive as imperial authorities have begun cracking down in recent years. The Gray Fox has set it up that only people that have spent time in jail or makes a good impression with the city's beggars, whom are his spies, will even be given an opportunity to join the guild and then they must face other prospective thieves in a race to steal a particular item to be officially allowed in.
After completing a few jobs to help the people of the waterfront, the player gets a few jobs on behalf of the Gray Fox himself and are asked to steal a book containing particular lore on the eponymous Elder Scrolls. The next job is a very personal one for the Gray Fox, as you are assigned to have a letter forged to reassign a particular guard captain named Hieronymous Lex, who has been on a crusade to try and arrest the Gray Fox and disband the Thieve's Guild. The player steals a recommendation letter for the Captain of the Anvil Guard and brings it to a mysterious and unnamed beggar, really the Gray Fox without his cowl on, to forge the letter to recommend Lex. This results in Lex becoming the new personal bodyguard of Countess Milona Umbranox. The Gray Fox sets it up this way not only to get Lex far away from guild operations but that he also secretly has a great deal of respect for Lex and trusts the man enough to keep his long suffering wife safe until he can one day return.
This mission is the catalyst for the player becoming the Gray Fox's most trusted agent he let's the player in on his plan for the ultimate heist, one of the legendary Elder Scrolls themselves, locked in the deepest confines of the Imperial Palace. Thus, the Gray Fox begins working personally with the player instead of through proxies as he had previously. His first assignment is the theft of the artifact called Savilla's Stone which, when acquired, allows him to scry deep into the palace and discover a route for the player to take to the Elder Scroll. Before the heist, the player has to steal two more items for him to finish preparations, the Arrow of Extrication and the Boots of Springheel Jack. With these items, the Gray Fox delves into his complicated plan to steal the Elder Scroll.
The player is first given a key the Gray Fox pickpocketed from the imperial regent himself which unlocks the sewers to the palace. The player follows by sneaking through the palace and activating a magical hourglass that allows entrance into an ancient escape route known as the Old Way. Through this long dungeon run, the boots are used to jump over a massive gap and the arrow is used as a magical key to open the final door out of the tunnels and into the palace guard quarters. From here, the player has to do some amazing stealth to get to the chambers bearing the Elder Scroll, and thankfully the Gray Fox set up the player as a guest needing access to the particular scroll. Remaining silent to fool the blind guardians, the player takes a seat, waits for the scroll to be brought to them, and simply takes the scroll and makes their escape. The player goes to a secret chute in the fireplace the Gray Fox scouted out and wears, and destroys, the Boots of Springheel Jack to take the brunt of a very long fall back into the Old Way. With the Elder Scroll in his possession, the Gray Fox and the player make their way to Anvil Castle where he introduced himself to the Countess. Before her eyes, he uses the Elder Scroll to undue the curse of Nocturnal and become Count Corvus once again. Reunited with his wife at long lost, the once Gray Fox passes the Gray Cowl and leadership of the Thieve's Guild over over to the player to take his place as the new Gray Fox.
Is he magnificent?
Much like Jim Stacey from Morrowind, the Gray Fox is very much the ideal of the gentleman thief and never once gets angry or disrespectful. He is very charismatic from his days as a Count, and his complicated master plan to steal an Elder Scroll is the greatest theft n the franchise, this showing off his intellect. No problem here.
Is he a bastard?
This is honestly more of an issue, as the Gray Fox is a fundamentally decent person that barely does much bad during the Thieve's Guild quest line. Although, I would say even running an illegal organization based on theft and blackmail is enough bastardry to make the baseline, and if that's not enough, he outright tells the player that he will lighten up the punishment for murders during his final quest to ensure his goals come to fruition. So a pass here as well
Any other mitigating factors?
None at all.
Final Verdict?
I think he's an easy pass. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to Gray Fox
Alright, I disagreed with cutting DCAU Darkseid before...but with that? Yeah I'm switching to cut like the rest.
Being fair to people, I don't think a lot of us remembered that Info, as from what I've read of previous arguments even those arguing agasint him never brought it up.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lizzid people!
Yeah, wouldn't completely blame Exister for probably misremembering that part. Yes to Gray Fox.
Yes to Gray Fox and honestly...? The upvotes weren't considering all the information, I didn't say OE or name anyone else, I'm expressing my frustration at the fact last time around people went "Sure, keep" without a second thought. There's a difference between a fair argument which may have missed a point and just wanting to say yes again and again because we don't think anything else needs to be said. This is not productive behaviour for the thread.
Gray Fox
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
There was no reason to believe that they were missing something, the arguments for him saying his villainy was more over the top then disgusting or he was too big to hate seemed convincing at the time, and they voted a certain way with all the info presented to them.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
I don't feel like dragging this out, I've said my piece.
Lizzid people!
I wasn't denying that there should've been more scrutiny the second time around. But that problem's resolved and it'd be beating a dead horse.
Alright, so at the risk of seeming obsessive considering the times I've brought this particular character up, but this seems like a decent time to ask considering we're already mentioning it.
So, in the manga, (I believe it's cut from the anime) Yoshikage Kira has some foreplay with Shinobu while disguised as her husband in which he ends up rushing off before actual sex occurs due to the fear that he'll kill her and expose his ruse. This would be an example where it's not really an issue, right?
Lizzid people!
How different is Kira in the manga?
Not particularly different from his anime incarnation. I just wanna make sure this particular thing isn't an issue. I doubt it is, but I thought we ought to have our bases covered.
Joker, Heiss, Meister, Selena, Trask, Gloria, Jerry and Fox
How's this quote?
Batman:And what are you?
Red Hood: I'm cleaning up Gotham. More than you ever did.
Batman: You're stealing territory from Black Mask and killing anyone who gets in your way.
Red Hood: Black Mask is just a part of the plan.
Batman: Plan? You're becoming a crime lord.
Red Hood: Yes. You can't stop crime. That's what you never understood. I'm controlling it. You wanna rule them by fear. But what do you do with the ones who aren't afraid? I'm doing what you won't: I'm taking them out!
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Jul 26th 2020 at 10:40:08 AM
RIP Toriyama
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Dig the quote!
'Yes' to Gray Fox
Yeah, even I myself had forgotten that tidbit on Darkseid which would have made the 'cut' proceedings a bit smoother... definitely a deal-breaker.
Riley, if I may ask, what chapter does the scene you're talking about take place in? Don't doubt what you're saying is true, but I have little memory of it myself, and I can take a quick look to refresh myself for an answer if you have the chapter number onhand.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I do not recall the chapter, unfortunately. I’m sorry.
Edit: Honestly, I don’t recall it well either, but the Fridge page mentions it under Fridge Horror.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:12:18 AM
Lizzid people!
Chapter 369 I think.
I like the quote too.
I just thought to mentioned TFBW! Cartman since we were discussing different versions of characters in various words counting or not, but obviously it seems that any version of Cartman won't count, which I'm perfectly okay with (I'd rather see him get counted as a Complete Monster one day than in this anyway). It doesn't help that the adults in TFBW are extremely stupid and it's more of him exploiting their Idiot Ball than Cartman doing anything genuinely smart himself.
I still think the M&L version of Bowser is worth an EP
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 26th 2020 at 4:29:19 AM