During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Play!Flynn.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Kaido, Eggman, Grassy, and Play!Flynn.
Edited by Bullman on May 27th 2022 at 9:55:12 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yes to Flynn!
YES to Flynn and now, from the latest episode of Love, Death and Robots. From season 3, episode 2, Bad Traveling.
For those unaware, LD&R is a series of animation, each episode being a different story from a different creator brought to life by a different animation team. Bad Travelling is a story set in a fantasy world with VERY deadly waters, where a group of sailors who hunt creatures called Jable Sharks receive a very unwelcome visitor in the form of a giant crab that's very, very hungry, called a thanapod.
Our hero? Torrin.
who is Torrin?
The helmsman of the ship who witnesses the Thanapod devour the captain and retreat below deck into the hold. Torrin proposes finding someoe in charge by drawing straws. The new captain forces Torrin to act as a "scout" due to disliking him and pushes him to it...knowing full well Torrin is likely to die. Torrin manages to elude the crab, but to his shock, it kept half the corpse of a victim, talking through it. It wants to go to a nearby island. It wants passage to Phaiden Island and the innocent, undefended men, women and children there. Torrin agrees to assist it, but he needs something. The thing throws up some meat and Torrin gets a key, walks out and bolts for the captain's captain to retrieve a gun. He makes clear to the crew that he spoke to the crab, it wants passage to Phaiden, they have to feed it to keep it happy. Torrin has the new captain thrown to the hold for it to eat and proposes an idea:
nobody there is fond of Phaiden Island, so Torrin proposes a secret ballot. A circle means to sail beyond the island to a deserted one and fool the crab. An X is to sic it on Phaiden Island. Torrin then reveals he marked the ballots to know whose are whose and two cowards voted to send the crab to Phaiden Island. Torrin promptly executes two men with one shot and declares them united in purpose. Phaiden Island approaches and the crew tries to have Torrin killed. He wryly remarks on the "low morale" and says he's going to bed.
Except he's not and he sets a trap, knowing the crew is after him, using most of the gun's remaining bullets to execute the crew, save one locked in a chest who claims he refused to participate. The two toss the bodies to the crab (which has young now, many of them) and Torrin then tells the man he lied earlier. "I didn't mark the ballots. I didn't have to"
Torrin then shoves him to the hold and says "every one of you made an X."
Realizing it's do or die, Torringoes into the holds and opens the barrels of jable shark oil, with his gun out. The crab gloats its shell protects it. Torrin shoots the lantern to set the place on fire and bails, leaving the crab and its young to burn as he escapes the burning ship and rows for safety to Phaiden island.
Mitigating issues?
Not a damn thing. Torrin is smooth. Even when nearly killed, Torrin never loses his cool, his sense of humor or his charm. He plans things to the damn letter with the Thanapod and the crew, knowing exactly when rebellions are coming and playing everyone. Perfectly, from the start to the finish. Torrin's plans work perfectly.
And yeah, while the crew are dicks, Torrin still pulls some harsh moves. Having the captain thrown to the crab, tossing the last guy in the hold...Torrin is far too ruthless and ensures he's the last man standing for me to say he's a guile hero.
Conclusion?
Easy keeper.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Sykes, Lorag, Eggman, Kaido, Noel, Flynn and Torrin.
for Lorag, Eggman, Kaido, Grassy Noel, Flynn, and Torrin.
Woagh
Yee to Flynn and Torrin.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
As we discuss easy to Torrin
Yes to Flynn and Torrin.
Quick question before my next EP, did we ever discuss Pokemon Sword and Shield? I couldn't find any discussion on it.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Torrin.
Yes to Billy and Torrin.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm pretty sure we haven't.
Lorag, Eggman, Kaido, Noel, Flynn and Torrin
I hate spoilers
Torrin did not disappoint in the slightest from what you said. Happy yea!
Anyways, here's my final candidate from Sorcery!. I'll also reiterate that all these guys and the two from CM are only from the video games and not the original game books. The fourth and final chapter, The Crown of Kings, sees the Analander finally reach the Mampang Fortress and infiltrate to steal the Crown from the evil Archmage. Yet, they can find one particularly useful ally while inside that shows not all the Archmage's forces are as vile as he is.
Who is Commander Cartoum?
Cartoum is the Commander of the Mampang Guard and one of countless men enthralled into servitude by the Crown's powers. He also happens to be one of the very few people in the game that manages to break the Crown's hold over them by their own will. The combination of his love for his lost wife and watching the people of Mampang suffer gave him the mental fortitude to break free from the Crown and begin plotting the Archmage's downfall. Having heard the prophecy of the Analander's victory over the Archmage, Cartoum made moves to find the Crown's location and steal it. All the while, he maintained the illusion of servitude by allowing his soldiers and the nobility free reign to terrorize the people and never made a move to curb any of their behavior. He subtly recruits many of the guard to his side over time and assigns the guard and thief Ranii to search the vaults beneath the fortress to look for the Crown.
This is where the Analander gets involved and may unwittingly get dragged along for Ranii's raid into the vaults. They find only traps down there and a disappointed Ranii takes the Analander to meet Cartoum and discuss his plot against the Archmage. Realizing the Analander is the subject of the Prophecy, Cartoum tells them he will allow them into the Fortress to confront the Archmage and steal the Crown while he rallies his assembled allies and leads a revolution in the meantime. Optimally, the player is able to kill the Archmage and retrieve the Crown and look out over Mampang from the tallest tower. Cartoum's side of the plan went swimmingly and he sends one of his allied birdmen to help the player down to the main courtyard. Regardless of whether the Crown was destroyed or not, Cartoum is shrewd enough to have no interest in its power and secures the Fortress with his forces. The epilogue states that by helping the people rise up from the Archmage's tyranny, the land of Khakabad flourishes under the guidance of Cartoum.
Is he magnificent?
Interactions with the player depict Cartoum as a very professional and clever individual who isn't immediate to trust the player. He makes his own motives and plans ambiguous until he knows the player is who he is looking for, and the epilogue shows that he proves to be a competent and beloved leader. So he has the intellect and personality for this.
Is he a bastard?
While ultimately a well meaning man wanting the best for the people of Mampang Fortress, he still allowed them to suffer under his watch for quite a while to maintain his mask of servitude and tells the player rather coldly that is was necessary in the long term. What the people suffer through was terrible enough for me to call Cartoum a bastard despite his overall intentions.
Final Verdict?
A to my final candidate I think.
Showtime!
to Torrin and Cartoum
to Torrin, Grassy, play Billy, and Cartoum.
Edited by YobabyColin on May 28th 2022 at 8:38:50 AM
Torrin and Cartoum.
I've decided to give another possible candidate a try: Tom Nowak from The Inquest of Pilot Pirx. Not sure if he qualifies enough for the "bastard" part, though.
The Work
The Inquest of Pilot Pirx is a 1978 Soviet-Polish film adaptation of The Inquest, a sci-fi short story by Stanislaw Lem.
Pilot Pirx, famous for his Brutal Honesty, is assigned to captain a spaceship during an experimental flight: for the first time, the crew is comprised of both humans and humanoid robots. Each crew member only knows the truth about his own nature, and Pirx likewise isn't told which crewmen are human and which aren't; his job is to evaluate the crew's performance and write a full report on them by the end of the mission. The government's decision of greenlighting or forbidding mass production of humanoid robots depends on Pirx's report, and the company that has developed the robots has shown itself ready to do whatever it takes, up to and including murder, to make sure the production is allowed.
Pirx is firmly against the idea of humanoid robots from the start.
The Character
Tom Nowak is introduced as the doctor, neurologist and cyberneticist of the crew. A short while into the flight, he tells Pirx that he is actually a robot but will be on Pirx's side in this experiment. He explains that if Pirx's report portrays robots in a favorable light, robot production will become a normalcy and there would be nothing special about it. However, if the production is stopped, Nowak will remain unique and will be able to make a lot of his life, having the same chances as humans do but much better abilities than theirs. Nowak isn't afraid of being destroyed in case of Pirx's negative report: as he says, he's way too expensive to destroy.
Nowak offers Pirx a brief summary of his psychology and his views on humans. He is rather baffled by human emotions (he recalls an occasion when he accidentally cut his hand with a scalpel during an operation and the nurse, seeing the robotic mechanisms underneath, went into hysterics), and he believes that science and technology are the only worthwhile things in the world and will eventually outlast human views on morality. However, he admits he is grateful towards his developers: they haven't done a perfect job, but it's better to be a machine, he says, than not to exist at all.
The flight ends up being sabotaged by first pilot Calder, who is revealed to be the robot in the crew. Calder sought to get all the humans killed and bring the ship to Earth by himself, all the while framing Pirx for the catastrophe. Thanks to the co-pilot's quick thinking, Calder is destroyed and the crew gets to Earth safely, but Pirx is still brought to court, accused of criminal negligence. That's where Nowak comes in, producing a videotape he found in Calder's body during the autopsy; the tape has registered Calder's thoughts and proves his guilt and Pirx's innocence beyond doubt.
As they leave the court, Nowak explains why he pretended to be a robot: he wanted to assist Pirx in the experiment and decided that an overview of robotic psychology, which he had studied thoroughly as a neurologist, would sound more plausible from a robot.
Pirx thanks him heartily for saving him and shakes his hand... and on the back of his hand, notices a clearly non-human-looking scar from a scalpel. Nowak calmly walks away, and Pirx is afterwards constantly tormented by the thought of a robot among humans.
Is he magnificent?
He manages to become the one character in the movie whose plan is completely successful: he walks away to have the brilliant career he wanted without other robots to hinder him. He always keeps his cool and is friendly with the crew, disguising his superhuman intelligence (for example, by losing to another crew member at chess), and still manages to fool Pirx about his robotic nature despite being completely honest with him about his goals and ambitions aboard the ship.
Is he a bastard?
He doesn't actively help in the fight against Calder when the latter attempts to kill the crew. He prefers to hide his robotic nature during that fight and therefore shows he has a plan of his own even for the event of the humans' death. However, when Calder is destroyed and the crew just barely gets out alive, Nowak is quick to dramatically unmask Calder's sabotage and discredit his own developers.
Final Verdict
I think he fits.
Edited by AutumnLeaves on May 28th 2022 at 5:02:05 PM
I like it! Yes there. Oh and yes to Cartoum as well!
Edited by 43110 on May 28th 2022 at 11:04:40 AM
Cartoon Cartoum, Calder Novak, sorry about that heh.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 28th 2022 at 1:15:46 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
At the start of this month, I proposed Chiquito, a character from a Tintin comic. He is one of the two Incan Priests in the story, but I failed to bring up the second priest - Huascar - and I feel that I should have. He only appears in Prisoners of the Sun, so his role is much smaller compared to that of Chiquito.
The Work
The Candidate
Huascar is the second Incan High Priest, who is stalking Tintin and Haddock in the first half of the comic, while they are in Peru. There are two notable instances where his actions affect the story.
The first is where he sabotages a train the duo are on (or gets someone to). They aren't even suspicious that they are the only people on their carriage, only freaking out when they see that it has been disconnected from the rest of the train. Beforehand, we see him argue with a train conductor, who tells him that "he wont do it", but Huascar threatens him by telling him "you know what happens to those who disobey him"
The second happens after he notices Tintin defend Zorrino from two Spanish bullies, which makes him realize that Tintin is actually a decent person. He finds Tintin and tries talking him out of finding Calculus. When the latter insists, Huascar provides Tintin with a medallion which will keep him safe. Tintin later gives the medallion to Zorrino after they are arrested by the Incans, which means that he cannot use it to protect himself from the pyre.
Magnificence and Bastardry
At first, his main goal is to prevent Tintin and Haddock from finding Calculus and the Incans, even going so far as to trying to murder them. However, after Tintin defends Zorrino, his view on Tintin softens, and he warns him that continuing his search for Calculus will be very dangerous. When Tintin refuses to give up on finding Calculus, Huascar gives him something that he hopes will protect him.
The Charm ad Moral Ambiguity boxes have been checked. As for scheming, he is seen threatening a train conductor to send Tintin and Haddock to their deaths, but he has it set up to look like an accident. Also, giving Tintin the medallion was done to protect him from the inevitable wrath of the Incan prince.
Final Verdict
May not be as strong a keeper as Chiquito, but worth bringing up nonetheless
Edited by magnumtropus on May 28th 2022 at 3:48:07 PM
Yes to Pilot and Huascar.
Edited by YobabyColin on May 28th 2022 at 11:30:59 AM
Here's Play!Flynn
What’s the work?
Chicago is a famous musical set in the 1920s, it follows Roxie Hart, a wannabe Vaudeville performer who cheats on her husband Amos with a man named Fred and when Fred tries to leave her, Roxie shoots him dead and is arrested. While there she ends up turning to the only man who can save her, lawyer Billy Flynn.
Who is Billy Flynn and what does he do?
Billy is a famous lawyer who specializes in helping the female prisoners by boosting their public image to make the jury more sympathetic to their situation. He’s initially the lawyer to Velma Kelly, a performer who killed her sister and husband and Roxie is referred to him. Roxie’s husband Amos is able to get part of Billy’s fee but when he can’t cover all of it, Billy decides to keep helping Roxie by setting up an auction of Roxie’s stuff to cover the rest of the legal fees. Billy begins by giving Roxie a sob story background of losing her parents, going to a convent, getting wrapped up in the “jazz and liquor” of Chicago, and reframes Fred as a violent man who Roxie killed in self defense. This turns her trial into a total media circus that Billy plans to leverage at her trial. When Roxie fakes a pregnancy to gain more attention, Billy convinces Amos that he couldn’t be the father, making Amos file for divorce which further gains sympathy for Roxie. In the trial Billy turns things around on Amos and makes him believe that he really is the father of Roxie’s child, causing the two to have a dramatic public reconciliation. As a result of all of his actions, Billy manages to get Roxie a not guilty verdict (also Velma gets acquitted offscreen presumably because of Billy).
Is he magnificent?
He’s a delightfully entertaining character who’s smooth talking allows him to get Roxie of the hook for Fred’s murder, not much to say here.
Is he a bastard?
He’s not as bad as the film version but he still gets Roxie (and possibly Velma) acquitted despite her being an admitted murderer, which is clearly something he does all the time (at one point he jumps at the opportunity to defend a triple homicide case for a different woman)
Conclusion?
A pretty easy yes
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon