During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Diane
Showtime!
to Diane and Cobalt
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Argon, i think the Ami thing pushes him over the bastard edge
Diane Foxington.
Dlanor (Newton's counterarguments seem solid), Diane and Cobalt
Gotta think on Argon because the Ami thing is disturbing.
Any more votes on my Tombstone quote?
I didn't really get any feedback on this when I asked earlier, so I'll just do the EP and work with it from there.
The Work
Flight 714 to Sydney is the obligatory Bizarro Episode of the Tintin series. It sees the return of Tintin's archenemy, Rastapopulous, as he plans to steal the fortune of billionaire Lazlo Carreidas. Tintin and his friends happened to be on the same jet as Carreidas, so they are kidnapped too. Halfway through the story, Tintin finds himself receiving telepathic instructions. Turns out that they are coming from the candidate...
The Candidate
... who calls himself Mik Kanrotikoff. He was communicating with them via a telepathic transmitter near his ear. He obtained the transmitter from a race of extraterrestrial humanoids, who were worshipped as gods on the island they are on. Kanrotikoff is merely a middle-man for communication between the aliens and Earth's scientists, and contributes to a Space Magazine. He hypnotizes Carreidas into believing that he still has his hat with him after hhe complains about losing it
Elsewhere, Rastapopoulos and his men accidentally trigger a volcanic eruption when they try to use explosives to get into the temple which Tintin and co. enter. They flee via a rubber dinghy. Kanrokitoff helps the heroes escape by hypnotizing them and having them board a flying saucer piloted by the extraterrestrials. Kanrokitoff spots the rubber dinghy and exchanges Tintin and his companions for Rastapopulos' crew. Unfortunately, the gang is unconscious, so they are at mercy of approaching lava, and are only saved upon being noticed by an overhead helicopter. It also turns out that Kanrotikoff mind wiped everyone (except Snowy) to forget the events of the comic. That being said, Calculus discovers a rod which he found in his pocket, having found it in the caves beforehand - the material of said rod does not exist on Earth.
Magnificence
Kanrotikoff is nice to Tintin and co. and even helps them while they are on the island, from sending telepathic directions to Tintin and using his extraterrestrial connections to get the characters off the island. He also serves as a mediator between aliens and Earths scientists, through contributing to a science magazine.
My main issue is that he doesn't scheme much, at least not in the traditional sense. At most, he hypnotizes Carreidas into thinking that he still has his hat and brainwashes everyone to forget the events of the story... and the above stuff
Bastardry
This was another issue I had at first because Mik is nothing but nice and helpful to the gang at first and his hypnosis / mind wiping isn't depicted as harmful. However, there is one thing at the end which might push him over the line -
At the very end, he lowers a still hypnotized Tintin and co. onto a dinghy in the middle of the ocean. They are still dazed after they are deposited and are left there for several hours, which wouldn't be a problem if they weren't being approached by volcanic lava and smoke. They would have easily died if an overhead helicopter hadn't spotted them. Mik also dropped off Doctor Krollspell (one of Rastapopulous' men who did a Heel–Face Turn) in his clinic in Cairo, meaning that he could have dropped Tintin and co. off somewhere safer.
Also, to Diane. I wasn't able to watch The Bad Guys, so I guess jackie can EP all the discussed candidates.
I like how last week, we were voting on a work called The Good Guys, and now we are voting on a work called The Bad Guys
Edited by magnumtropus on May 6th 2022 at 2:37:43 PM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Mik
Speaking of The Bad Guys, the rest of the (admittedly more detailed and refurbished) EPs will arrive tomorrow.
"No running in the halls!"
Yes for Mik. Will get my ass in gear updating my stuff soon!
Speaking of foxes, does anyone think that Nick Wilde from Zootopia has a shot at this trope? Or does getting tricked by Judy hurt him enough? I don't recall him suffering from any truly humiliating moments otherwise (besides being bullied as a cub, which is portrayed in a sympathetic light).
Yes to Diane & Mik.
Nick fits neither word. The worst he does is evade taxes in a movie where worse crimes are committed on the regular, and he is blackmailed by Judy as you said in addition to being very smug.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on May 6th 2022 at 10:51:41 AM
Professor Gigachad
Eh, to be honest, I would personally be willing to say that he hits the bastard label as he is well established as a serial con artist who is only dodging the law due to loopholes, but yeah I do agree he doesn't count due to his smugness and lack of magnificence.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on May 6th 2022 at 8:31:23 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Gotta love Jaws!
to Adalric, Jaalib, Diane, Cobalt and Mik.
Abstain on Argon.
to Knox.
Yes to Milk
I don't understand the counterarguments against Dlanor. Yes she's not the most cunning, but she is plenty cunning and she's guiding the protagonist towards their goal. She seems to have enough bastardliness in turn, potentially hurting an innocent person. I don't see why she shouldn't count. Dlanor.
Diane, Mik, Cobalt.
Argon. That final fate he puts on that girl seems way too much.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 6th 2022 at 12:51:06 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Having read the EP, I’ll say yes to Dlanor too.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on May 6th 2022 at 12:25:16 PM
to Dlanor, Diane, and Mik
The MILF Virus
Jaalib, Diane, Cobalt and Mik.
Currently Dlanor is at a 4-7
No: (Taylor, Tel, Yo Baby, Bull, Deluxe, 43, many)
Yes: (Demonduck, jjjj, Guma, G-Editor)
Seems like it would be a no but the votes seem to be going yes at the end there, so not sure what that means?
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
You also count, unless I'm misremembering and you didn't vote on her. I'd wait a bit to let more votes trickle in.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Switching to for Dlanor.
for Diane, Cobalt, and Mik.
for Argon.
Since this is all I have for now, I'll provide drafts for my two Tintin candidates
- Tintin:
- "The Seven Crystal Balls" and "Prisoners of the Sun": Rupac Inca Huaco, aka Chiquito, is an Incan Priest seeking vengeance against a team of European explorers for desecrating the tomb of Rascar Capac. Working undercover as Ramon Zarate's assistant, he uses the titular crystal balls to put the explorers in a coma, and uses wax figures to torment them at his own will. He also kidnaps Professor Calculus when he puts on a bracelet belonging to the former king, and smuggles him to Peru with the intention of executing him for sacrilege. However, when Tintin tells the Incan Prince that the explorers were well-intentioned people who wanted to educate the world about the Incan Civilization, Chiquito willingly destroys the figures upon the prince's orders, freeing his victims from their curse.
- "Flight 714 to Sydney": Mik Kanrotikoff (Ezdanitoff in the French version) acts as a middle-man between Earth's scientists and aliens formerly worshipped by the residents of Pulau-pulau Bompa. He uses a telepathic transmitter to communicate with the aliens and instruct Tintin on how to find him. He saves Tintin and company from a volcanic eruption by hypnotizing them into entering a flying saucer, erasing their memory of the events of the story, and depositing them on a dinghy in the ocean, though still leaving them dazed and at the mercy of the volcano.
Edited by magnumtropus on May 6th 2022 at 5:18:52 PM
Yes to Dlanor, and I have a star Wars of my own: Vua Rapuung.
Who is Vua Rapuung?
A Yuuzhan Vong warrior, Vua Rapuung was a brilliant fighter and commander, one who achieved fame and renown for his abilities. Vua Rapuung had one failing: he fell in love with a woman of the Shaper domain: Mezhaan Kwaad. Their love was forbidden and Vua Rapuung, guilty for betraying his gods, broke the affair off. Mezhan Kwaad furiously told him the gods were a lie and paranoid of being discovered, sabotaged his implants and made his body rot.
This was seen as a sign of the Gods' disfavor and Vua Rapuung was relegated to the lowest of the low: The Shamed Ones, with nobody believing him for his story. Vua Rapuung took a chance when the Vong took Yavin IV, faked his death and fled, his dreams leading him to Anakin Solo, the "Jeedai." While Vua and Anakin took some time to...adjust to one another, as Vua considered his technology heresy, he vowed he'd stand with anakin and concoted a plan to infiltrate the Vong and Shamed Ones and save Anakin's girlfriend Tahiri from Mezhan Kwaad. And also and most especially allow Vua to redeem his honor.
Vua Rapuung sees them infiltrate the local domain of the Shamed Ones, with Vua revealing his true goals: Anakin would keep the others off him so he could force Mezhan Kwaad to confess to her misdeeds. The two manage to get in, with Anakin learnig the ways of the Shamed Ones and the Yuuzhan Vong, while the others finally located Mezhan Kwaad and Tahiri. Vua Rapuung, true to his word, confronts his ex and she reveals the truth: "There are no gods. This is what I made of you."
Mezhan Kwaad wounds him, but is killed by Tahiri. His honor restored, Vua Rapuung is told by his brother, Hul, to slay Anakin for honor.
....And Vua Rapuung stands between his fellows and Anakin. When they protest he's no longer shamed? "I was never shamed! But now you know it is a warrior you face." Lifting his hand, he calls out "A salute to the Jeedai! A salute in blood!" And knocks his brother out to spare him.
As Anakin and Tahiri escape, Anakin looks down to see Vua Rapuung die. Surrounded by corpses, he kills the warrior who deals him a final blow and falls. This is witnessed by many Shamed Ones, who make of Vua Rapuung a patron saint, one who is redeemed by the Jedi...a Jeedai Heresy forms. A path to redemption.
Mitigating issues?
No. Vua Rapuung starts off...not the nicest guy. He's cold, furious about his lot in life and he's even got some prejduices against Anakin and the others, referring to them as "infidels" as the Vong are wont to do as their religion views all who use inorganic technology as heretics. However, he's intensely charismatic and a solid plotter, concocting just about everything for himself and Anakin.
Now, Vua Rapuung also outgrows his bigotry. He and Anakin realize how little they understand one another and afternearly coming to blows, they take time to reevaluate. By the end? Vua Rapuung has outgrown all his old prejudices and he performs an absolutely epic Heroic Sacrifice that resonates for a long time.
He's definitely not a nice guy. He ruthlessly kills Vong and has no issues preparing to sacrifice Anakin, Tahiri and other Shamed Ones. He does have a strong sense of honor, though and when given a chance to kill Anakin and rejoin his fellows, he chooses to die to protect Anakin for no other reason than he believes it's the right thing, and dies as a hero and symbol of hope for an entire downtrodden, oppressed caste.
Conclusion?
Hell yes.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Vua
Vua sounds like he counts, but does he do anything sketchy after putting aside his bigotry?
He's fully willing to kill other Yuuzhan Vong and even Shamed Ones to get his way. Saint he ain't
Then yes.
Yes to Diane.
Is Charles Darwin the weirdest real life figure we've put up for this?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.