During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Alright, got another EP today. But this is a pretty tricky one IMO given some things that I will address and won't going to sugarcoat it. Without further ado. Let's begin!
What's the Work
Big Hero 6 is a 2014 Disney film that tells us the story of robotic prodigy brothers, Hiro Hamada and Tadashi Hamada. Now, Hiro usually used his robots for illegal robot fights. However, after Tadashi takes him to the San Fransyoko Lab and then met with one of the famous professor that teaches in there, Hiro then suddenly changed for the better by trying to invite his own robot, the Microbots, to impress said professor. Not only that, Tadashi also introduces Hiro to his own huggable learning robot named Baymax for assisting in healthcare and hopes it can be used in hospitals in the future. However, a tragedy occured, a fire breaks out among the exhibits in the university and Tadashi rushes in to save the professor, the only person left inside. The building explodes moments later, killing Tadashi.
Days later, a threat to the city arises caused by the mysterious criminal Yokai who was revealed to use Hiro's microbots for nefarious purposes. As a result, Hiro then tries to recruit Tadashi's best friend and then upgrades Tadashi's robot, Baymax, into a fighting, flying machine in order to find and stop Yokai's nefarious purposes.
Who Is He/What Has He Done
So judging by the summary, You know who I will bring right? Alright, Yokai is a criminal who is revealed to be none other than the charismatic university Professor, Professor Callaghan that was supposed to die in the explosion that also killed Tadashi. However, he survived by controling one of Hiro's microbots in order to protect himself. His first appearance as Yokai is that when he was found in a warehouse where Hiro's microbots led to him and it was also revealed in said warehouse, Yokai manufactures Hiro's microbots by dozen and when Hiro finds out about it, Yokai then attempts to kill Hiro and Baymax with his microbots. And after Hiro escapes from Yokai's clutches, Hiro then explains the matter to the local police station, but the cop didn't believe him due to the lack of evidence and when Baymax tries to tell the evidence, his battery runs low, rendering his evidence almost completely unreliable.
Determined to capture Yokai and seeking vengeance for his death brother, Hiro then builds Baymax a suit and then upgraded him as a fighter robot. After this, Hiro tracks down Yokai near the warehouse in which he saw Yokai gathering massive parts from the nearby bay with the microbots. Suddenly, the rest of Tadashi's friends (Go Go,Honey Lemon,Wasabi and Fred), who Baymax had contacted earlier, drive in. When Hiro desperately attempts to explain the situation, Yokai sees them and attempts to kill them with his microbots. Narrowly saved by Baymax, Hiro and the rest of the team drive off with Yokai right behind them. Yokai attempts to kill them by throwing vehicles and using his microbots as a wave to attack them. It ends with Go Go accidentally driving a car into the bay and sinking into the water. Yokai then leaves after thinking that Hiro, Baymax and Tadashi's friends are drowned.
After Hiro and Tadashi's friends are emerging from underwater and retreat to Fred's mansion, Baymax then tells Hiro that he already scanned the data of Yokai. Planning to do a mass scan on San Fransokyo to find out his identity, Hiro builds a new battle suit for Baymax, equipped with offensive capabilities and rocket-propelled flight, and designs suits for his friends, organizing the team known as Big Hero 6 to bring Yokai to justice. Baymax and Hiro fly above San Fransokyo and scan the city, and Yokai's information is matched to a distant, quarantined island.
Flying to the island, the Big Hero 6 then discovers a video feed which shows the construction of a machine, which is a teleportation device. A CEO named Alistair Krei is seen in the feed, heading the project. However, a mortal accident happen and a test pilot who was using the teleportation machine named Abigail is launched inside and is presumed dead by the rest of the team. This leaves Big Hero 6 to assume that Krei is the guy under the mask since the government forced him to shut down his experiment after Abigail's supposed death, and they believe Krei is using Hiro's microbots to steal his own machine back. However, Yokai then suddenly appears and attempts to crush the heroes. Hiro and everyone else fights Yokai, ending with Hiro and Baymax flying into Yokai and knocking off his mask.
As they got up, Yokai turned and showed his true identity as Professor Robert Callaghan. Realizing that Callaghan was the one who caused the fire that killed Tadashi, a shocked Hiro confronts him for this, only for the professor to explain coldly that Hiro's microbots saved him and that he believes Tadashi's death was his own mistake. Out of complete rage, Hiro then removes Baymax's healthcare chip and orders him to kill Callaghan. Baymax goes out of control and attempts to kill the now powerless Callaghan under Hiro's orders, but the other members try to stop him, allowing Callaghan to gather up the microbots and flee. Baymax is forcefully stopped and Callaghan reclaims his mask to use the microbots to escape, much to Hiro's rage. Fortunately however, Hiro was recovered after seeing the compilations of Tadashi's videos and apologizes to the rest of the team and then looks over into the video feed again. In there, it was revealed that Abigail was actually Callaghan's own daughter and because of the accident of the project, Callaghan then tries to take revenge against Krei.
Big Hero 6 rushes over to Krei Tech's main building, where Krei is making a speech about the new building's opening. Callaghan then suddenly intercepts, seizing Krei and dragging him into the air and directly confronting Krei about his daughter's supposed demise. Krei begs that Abigail's presumed death was an accident, but Callaghan dismisses his plea and accuses Krei and his arrogance and greed, and lack of regard for the consequences of his actions for being the cause of Abigail's death. He then tells Krei that he took everything from him when he sent Abigail into the portal and apparently disregarded her life and now he will take everything from him in retaliation. Callaghan takes the remains of the teleportation machine and with the microbots, rebuilds it over Krei Tech's building, intending to destroy it. He tells Krei that he will make him watch everything he built be destroyed, then he would kill Krei next.
Big Hero 6 arrives, and Hiro tries to reason with Callaghan to spare Krei, admitting that he empathizes with him and knows the very feeling of loss. Realizing that what Hiro says may be true, Callaghan hesitates and appears to consider stopping his plan. However, when Krei cowardly pleads for mercy, Callaghan then shows his disgust again at Krei's lack of courage to consume him and instead opts to kill both Krei and the Big Hero 6, saying furiously that he wishes to have his daughter alive again, using the microbots to pin down each member of Big Hero 6. In a climactic final battle, Hiro has everyone work from different angles, succeeding in tricking Callaghan into sucking his microbots into the portal the machine above created.
Callaghan is about to receive a punch in the face by Baymax, but it turns out that the robot decides to spare the former professor. Baymax the removes the mask and crushes it, rendering the remaining microbots useless. As such, Callaghan starts to fall along with the portal, only to be saved by Baymax and Hiro. Before Callaghan can be arrested, Baymax detects life within the teleportation machine's dimension, revealing that Abigail is alive but in hypersleep, much to Callaghan's surprise. Hiro and Baymax fly into the portal and successfully manage to draw Abigail out, but at the cost of Baymax's original body. For his crimes, Callaghan is arrested by the police, but he manages to see his daughter one last time before being driven off in a police car, and his sad facial expression implies that he becomes remorseful for his actions.
Is He Charismatic, Charming, Thinks on His Feet?
Alright, this is a rather tricky one for Callaghan to qualify for this trope and I won't going to sugarcoat it: In one of the scenes, where Callaghan is powerless and Baymax almost tries to kill him, Callaghan then runs away from the fight with his own microbots. I'm not sure if this is a dirty coward thing to do but you could argue that it was justified as Baymax nearly tries to kill him in his furious form and then gets over it in the final and tries to kill the heroes. But aside from that, before he was revealed as a Yokai, Callaghan is actually a charismatic and jovial person and encourages his students to shape the future of the world which as a result, earning Hiro's respects and is the utter reason why he want to join the University. He does hate Alistair Krei in the beginning of the film and warns Hiro not to sell his inventions towards the man but I think it was justified. So yeah, I'm unsure if this could undermine Callaghan's qualification or not.
Is He A Bastard? Too Much?
Callaghan tries to kill the heroes when they discover his plans and is a man with a thirst of vengeance, trying to destroy everything what Alistair Krei builds and then tries to kill Alistair Krei when he was done with it. He also dismissed Tadashi's death as Tadashi's own mistake while he tried to save him from the fire.
But even with all those points, Callaghan does have a bit of justification on why he clearly hates Alistair Krei as his daughter was a victim of one of Krei's projects and he truly cares for her. You could also argue that him expressing a callousness regarding Tadashi's death is him having a valid point as Tadashi tried to endanger himself. And in the end of the day, when he found out his daughter is alive, he then felts remorse about the thing that he had done. I think with those points, I believe that Callaghan is one of the most three-dimensional and the most sympathetic of all the Disney antagonists as for now.
Final Verdict
I'm a little bit torn on this one like some of my previous candidates. On one hand, You could say yes due to him being a three-dimensional and the most of the sympathetic antagonists and on the other hand, you could say no due to one of the scene in the movie and is a man of Roaring Rampage of Revenge. But I'm still torn on this one. Until then, I leave this to you guys.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
No to Darkrai. Just a bit too cold, callous, and utterly bereft of any real admirable or likable traits for me.
And Callaghan... eh, for as fantastic a villain I think he is? I have to say no. Callaghan, for me, doesn't speak "magnificent" or "stylish" in any way, more just the actions of a grieving madman who's too busy lashing at everything around him to see what he's doing is wrong anymore — hence why his last expression evidences that he knows he's really fucked up by having started this in the first place.
Great villain, great foil to Hiro, but too crazy for me in the end to say yes.
Edited by Scraggle on Jul 22nd 2018 at 5:32:21 AM
Has Kuja from Final Fantasy IX been EP'd? I could try my hand at it later today.
Gotta say I (sadly) don’t quite see it for Yokai. No there and I’ll update Ravok’s pending.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Don’t think so and I’m not familiar with that game. Go for it if you think there’s case. FF is probably a goldmine.
@ Shadao, We’ve already got Xanatos for the Western Animation quote but I can stock up on quotes we like until there’s enough to rebuild a page for them.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 22nd 2018 at 10:39:03 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Darkrai.
Unsure on Yokai
Edited by ReynTime250 on Jul 22nd 2018 at 5:26:06 PM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Oof I know Yokai's a bust but ah well... At least I'm glad that I propose him. Also, heard that Big Hero 6 got an animated series... May or may not going to see it for some candidates 
As Scraggle said, Callaghan is a nay. I'm gonna abstain on Darkrai.
Now...
What’s the Work?
Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic is a shonen manga that ended last year. The premise? Set in a world inspired by Arabian Nights, there are a myriad of ‘dungeons’, places waiting to be conquered by adventurers who can then claim the prizes of the Djinn within. The more you conquer, the stronger you become. The Djinn are powerful spirits who make their user even more powerful…and also existing in this world are the Magi, powerful sorcerers who draw upon the innate energies of the world, the Rukh…and the magi are given to choose a King. Aladdin is one such Magi, guarded by his Djinn Ugo. Early on, he latches on to Alibaba, the illegitimate son of the king of Balbadd, and together with a powerful former slave girl named Morgiana they begin having their adventures…also running afoul of the evil conspiracy Al-Thamen, meeting friends, enemies and allies on the way…aand one of those allies? Is none other than the ruler of the Seven Seas Alliance…King Sinbad.
Who is Sinbad?
He’s…Sinbad of the Seven Seas. He’s the man who’s conquered more dungeons than anyone. He’s handsome, he’s charming, he’s popular, he’s friendly. He’s forged the independent kingdom of Sindria with alliances with multiple other kingdoms. Sinbad is one of the few who is aware of the evil organization al-Thamen and their plans. Sinbad was born in Tison Village, a small town in the Parthevia Empire, and at the young age of 14, conquered his first dungeon. After learning of A-thamen and establishing Sindria, after using the bonds he’d forged with his comrades to ensure a strong coalition, Sinbad cultivates other alliances and strengthens Sindria through this, while also empowering new allies. We first meet him properly in a seemingly comedic bit with the Kou Empire, an analogue to ancient China. Sinbad becomes a mentor to Alibaba, assisting him in saving his own country from Al-Thamen, while also assisting and protecting Aladdin and furthering Alibaba and friends’ quests.
We get a glimpse of how strong and dangerous Sinbad truly is when he’s able to absorb Black Rukh from one of Al-Thamen’s strongest warriors (something impossible unless one has touched ‘depravity’, Sinbad admitting he’s ‘half-fallen’) before Sinbad coldly executes the guy. Now, in a major arc when the head of al-Thamen attempts to summon their god to destroy the world? Sinbad brings the rulers of the kingdoms allied with Sindria to stop them…but it’s soon revealed a lot of his seeming benevolence was cold hard pragmatism. All his help of Alibaba and Aladdin had a double meaning and an edge to it, aimed at furthering his own means, so he could use them against Al-Thamen. It also turns out Sinbad has left little aspects of his Rukh in the heads of people in certain governments so he can spy on said governments through their eyes, and even hijack their minds, as he’d done to the Kou Empire’s youngest princess Kougyoku. During a war with the Kou Empire? Sinbad wins via this method, completely dismissing accusations of using dirty tactics. At the end? Sinbad seems to have entirely conquered the world, taking the allegiance of previous villain Arba and places everything under him. Sinbad proceeds to abolish slavery, encourage the prohibition of conscription and develops a global economy, so there is a single unified currency, intending on entering the Sacred Palace, the temple that controls the flow of the world, to rewrite the Rukh and create a ‘perfect’ world. When it’s pointed out Sinbad is basically forcing his ideal of a world onto everyone else? Sinbad’s response is an earnest “Yes, what’s wrong with that?” Deciding he’ll return the world to nothing and rebuild it the right way, there ends up being a massive gambit pileup as the villain from the past, King David, returns to hijack the plan, ending in Alibaba, Sinbad, David and Arba in a big multiside war…ending with David seizing control of the Sacred Temple, and Sinbad, realizing his errors, rushing to save the day with them. Finally, thanks to Aladdin and friends, David is destroyed, but not before Sinbad becomes one with the White Rukh to stop David, sacrificing himself for the world, albeit promising to return one day, as the world is saved and ends on Alibaba and Morgiana marrying and proceeding to their next adventures.
Is he charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
Sinbad is CRAZY charming. He’s charismatic, bold, pleasant and fun. He even has a prequel series that’s about his rise to power, but in a clever twist, it seems like it’s about a perfect hero who’s the ace…but it turns it around and you realize it’s about the rise of the ‘’villain’’ instead. Now, Sinbad believes everything he does is for the greater good as he defines it, and we later see that every act of kindness and charity in the main story? Has seemingly complete and utter less wholesome motives as it’s aimed around manipulating and using other people. However, this shouldn’t indicate his niceness isn’t genuine- it is. Sinbad at his core wants to better the world, but he also suffers from a spot of megalomania where being the best at everything has led him to believe he knows better than everyone. To his credit? He realizes this and hates the role he’s taken as the big bad, but feels he can’t really turn back at that point. However, Sinbad never stops being likable. In the English dub, Matt Mercer imbues him with exceptional charm and charisma, and the manga keeps him as the great figure he is.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
As said above…Sinbad is manipulative as hell. Hijacking Kougyoku’s mind is treated with appropriate nastiness to it. He has sacrificed people who believed in him, he’s destroyed those who stood against him. He’s not exactly the best guy, and he plots to turn the world to nothing to recreate it, stealing free will to create a utopia. To his credit, though…Sinbad does realize this is wrong, listens to reasoned arguments and sacrifices his life at the end for the good guys. He has the best intentions, has a ton of standards in hating slavery, cruelty, excessive greed, and loves his comrades deeply. He also thinks of Alibaba and Aladdin like little brothers and while he’ll manipulate people, he truly cares for them. I’d say we have a pass here.
Conclusion?
I’d give Sinbad an easy yes.
Yes for Sinbad. For all his crimes, dude’s an angel next to Arba and David.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
to Sinbad
And now…one Gundam one. One of the top villains of the original franchise….none other than…Char Aznable.
Who is Char? Char Aznable was born Casval Deikun, son of Zeon Deikun and older brother of Artesia Deikun. As a young man, Casval’s father was the founder of Zeon, but was betrayed and murdered by his closest friend and adviser, Degwin Zabi. Now, a young Casval was influenced enormously by his father’s ideals that led mankind into space, to establish colonies there, away from earth. However…the Zabi family hijacked his vision, establishing a brutal, fascist dictatorship. Casval hungered for two things: revenge and to see his father’s dream through. Desiring to destroy the Zabis and ‘save,’ Zeon, Casval was smuggled away from the Zabis by a friend of his father, along with his sister. However, he soon deserted Sayla and secretly enlisted in Zeon as a pilot, wearing a mask to disguise himself. And so…Char Aznable, the Red Comet was born, secretly planning to bring the Zabis to their end.
Distinguishing himself through his incredible skill as a pilot, as well as his charisma and ability as a tactician, Char would prove a devil against the Earth Federation…but it was here he would encounter the man who would help define his life: Amuro Ray, who seized the prototype mobile suit: the Gundam. Char easily outclassed him in skill, but the technological superiority of the Gundam prevented him from killing him. It was also here he would encounter his sister now known as Sayla Mass, but manipulated her into letting him go by revealing his face and fleeing her.
Char ends up in the employ of his friend, Garma Zabi, youngest son of the Zabis. Char deliberately misinformed Garma of the location of the Federation ship, White Base, sending Garma into a fatal trap. Contacting Garma to reveal his treachery, Char told him he was a good friend…but Char couldn’t forgive Garma’s father. Garma died in the battle, the first strike against the Zabis.
Char eventually ended up in the service of Kycilia Zabi, who knew his true identity, but kept it a secret, believing she could use him to her advantage, due to his skill, but also figured she could eventually use him as a figurehead leader of Zeon. Char continued to show his tactical ability against the Federation and Amuro. On earth, Char then met Lalah Sune, a young Indian woman who Char rescued from a brothel. Char realized that, like him, she was a Newtype, a human with psychic ability. Lalah bonded with Amuro and Char, forming a deep relationship with the latter. Unfortunately, when fighting Amuro? Lalah saved Char’s life at the cost of her own, devastating Char and causing a rift between the two men that would last the remainder of their lives.
Char and Amuro fought again at the decisive battle of A Boa Qu. The fight ended with injuries on both sides. Realizing his fight with Amuro distracted him from his true mission, he came to a peace with Amuro and his sister, before taking off after Kycilia, the last Zabi. Kycilia, not realizing that she had underestimated Char, was shocked to see him aiming a bazooka at her spacecraft…and telling Garma he was sending his sister to join him, Char fired, decapitating Kycilia and blowing her craft up.
Char proceeded to rejoin Zeon, as detailed in the novel Char’s Deleted Affair, taking over the leadership of the soldiers. Char heroically outwits the Federation on several occasions, but several things happen to disillusion him with Zeon: Char decides to protect the last Zabi, an innocent child named Mineva, helping to make young Haman Khan her guardian. Char helps toe stablished Haman and her father Maharajah as the leaders and even wins a civil war for them via his own brilliance…but Haman’s father dies. Haman ascends to lead Zeon…but also gets Char’s pregnant lover, Natalie Bianchi killed. When she was pregnant. Char sinks into a deep depression and tensions with Haman rise until Char leaves with 600 loyal soldiers. Char infiltrates the earth alliance under a new name, Quattro, and decides to fight against the new earth regime: the Titans, a totalitarian, brutal dictatorship. Chat helps to found the Anti-Earth Union Group or AEUG. Initially content to remain in the shadows and mentor the young newtype Kamille Bidan…Char slowly rises to greater prominence, becoming a charismatic leader to rally the Spacenoids against earth. After the death of the AEUG leader, Char gives an epic speech at Dakar, inspiring Spacenoids and detailing his philosophy that space is the future of humanity…undoubtedly one of the greatest, most pivotal moments in Gundam history…Char is also implied to know the Titans will attack his assembly, establishing them as the villains even more, allowing a full uprising.
The AEUG attempts to ally with Zeon, but Char…kind of scuttles this when he sees haman is using young Mineva as a puppet ruler. With all the bad blood between Haman and Char, things devolve into a three-way war between the Titans, the AEUG and Zeon. In a massive battle, Char is defeated by Haman, but survives…realizing his previous methods might have been wanting, and deciding that humans will still desire war? Char opts to sit back and watch…lurking on the sidelines to judge humanity for himself.
He finds them…wanting.
When Haman dies, Char returns to Zeon and takes it over, relying on his reputation as a war hero, his charisma and his own brilliance. Char has decided that despite his care for Earth? Dramatic action is needed…so he’s going to drop the asteroid colony Axis onto earth, forcing migration into space and nuclear winter on earth. Aware of the evil of his plan, but feeling he has no other way, Char manipulates the young Newtype girl Quess Paraya into helping his schemes. Rallying Zeon, Char also achieves his other aim: a final battle with Amuro Ray to settle everything between them.
As Axis is launched, Char opts to engage Amuro in one final, epic war, a lifetime of bad blood behind them as Amuro finally manages to best Char. Amuro rushes to stop Axis’s downfall, so inspiring the war that fighters on BOTH sides rush to stop Axis from falling to earth. Amuro and Char’s energies react and manage to stop Axis, saving earth…but the blast destroys Char and Amuro, killing both… Except, Char’s soul is split in two, one half remaining on earth, becoming the masked leader Full Frontal. At the end? Full Frontal rejoins with his other half, becoming Char. Gracefully accepting his errors, Char rejoins with Amuro and Lalah’s souls, as Char commits the future to the younger generation and departs with his great rival and great love for the next world at last.
Is he charming? Charismatic? A good planner? Char…varies at times. He’s very charming and charismatic, but some portray it as more superficial to a sociopathic interior. However, Char is a genius tactician and battle commander, pulling off countless incredible maneuvers that have become piloting lore. Now, Char is a legend to those who serve with him, rallying and inspiring his own troops. As a member of the AEUG? Char shows that he’s very on point on a personal level and the speech at Dakar is a huge turning point. As the leader of Neo-Zeon? Oh, yes, he’s very charming and manipulative on a personal level and presents as a charismatic firebrand to Zeon, who even have a song about him and how ‘Char is fighting for our prayers.’ Char is exceptional at manipulation and charm. In Char’s Deleted Affair, he’s noted to be extremely inspiring on every level, with soldiers willing to die for him, and people caring for him immensely. As a planner…now, I’d say there’s a bit of an overlap between this and opportunism. Char plays the long game, waiting for opportunities to dispatch the Zabis, seizing on them as they come. His two goals are tow wipe them out and facilitate his father’s ideals. He goes from fighting to avenge his dad into trying to make those dreams a reality, even if he’s willing to do horrible things to that end.
However, he does lure Garma into a trap, play Zeon so well that they instantly make him the leader when he returns with nobody the wiser of him having betrayed them, and Kycilia? IT’s worth noting that Kycilia really underestimates Char. She thinks he’s under her thumb and she can use him as a puppet, only for Char to prove to her why this just isn’t so, and that he is not content at being her puppet ruler.
I should note Char scuttles manipulations with Haman, but he is genuinely enraged by her using and manipulating Mineva Zabi, a child, as such a puppet. It’s also implied Char’s outburst here is what sways Haman to eventually send Mineva to safety. The dub also adds a questionable line of “I’ve never betrayed anyone in my life!” from Char…in the sub, it’s actually “I never betrayed you from the start, Haman!” as…yeah, there’s no other way to describe what Char does to Kycilia, Garma and Zeon in general. But yes, Char manipulates entire nations and all of humanity, and his plan to drop Axis on earth is…nasty, and there’s also serious questions if it’d even work, but I think Char ticks the boxes here. He does develop, grow and evolve as a character immensely.
Is he a bastard? Too much? Okay, umm…Char sacrifices his own men, kills Federation pilots, uses others as bait and human shields, manipulates an idealistic girl for his purposes, and oh yes, tries to drop a fucking asteroid on earth. Yes, he’s a bastard. He’s one of the single most famous and infamous villains in Gundam history for good reason. He is also a startlingly complex character. Char has major issues with empathy and not seeing others as tools, but he is not devoid of love. He idolized and adored his father deeply. He loves his sister Sayla/Artesia, and he loved Lalah deeply, as well as his pregnant lover Natalie whose death made him abandon Zeon to fight the battle against the Earth Feds in his own way. He hates Amuro, but in a strange way he cares for him, even if he’s willing to gamble all his plans on a final battle with Amuro, and at the end, he comes to a peace with Amuro and Lalah, realizing his methods were wrong and giving the future to the next generation. Char’s methods are beyond wrong, but his beliefs and ideals are for the betterment of humanity. He has a true conviction that space is the next step, and while it may be argued he’s just taken his father’s ideology for want of all else, I think it may have been the case at first while his observations of the world have led him to truly adopt them…and it’s not so different from Haman or Kycilia who have adopted the Zeon ideologies of their fathers as well. It’s also indicated Char knows what he’s doing is wrong and truly loathes himself for it while believing it must be done.
Conclusion? The Gundam wiki says “Throughout, Char tries to protect those he cares for and destroy those against him.” And I think this is a good summation of the character. He’s a fascinating, complex, multi-faceted villain with a number of flaws who both rises above and falls to them. However, I think by Unicorn, his final scene where he gracefully accepts things and moves on, coupled with his incredible charisma nd drive, help to cement Char here.
I’ve talked Char over thoroughly with both Lighty and Ambar and ultimately I’m a yeah. I think Ky still counts but she did underestimate him and I’d contest he shot his own best interests when he killed her. Char. Did. Not. Want. To. Be. A. Figurehead. He uses the tactics of an Opportunistic Bastard but his overarching goal always existed and while he bides his time is very successful and comes damn near destroying the Earth in CCA.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Char. I have said it before and I said it now, one of the reasons why he works as a character is because he isn't one. Char is ultimately a self destructive mess and that is what makes him iconic.
Sinbad of the Seven Seas
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 22nd 2018 at 12:55:11 PM
Watch me destroying my country
ally agree there. I think by the very end, Char achieves it through sheer tenacity, vision and grace. He goes from a lost orphan to the most powerful man alive, with even the people he's double crossed cheering him on.
For anyone else, I could use more on Sinbad as well.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
I'm just going to say yes with Char at the end of the day.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Foreign Troper
The Witcher tree at the drafts is wrongly organized. Gaunter should come last, since he only appears in the third game, not in the books.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Nothing stopping you from reorganizing it
Half-Demon Dude In A Bizarre World
To Char, to me he never came across as anything close to
magnificent. Just an asshole.
have something resembling discussion? Like, I spent some effort detailing how that isn't the case, getting just "no he's just a jerk" is a bit frustrating.
Yeah, bear in mind, if you tack a reason on to your vote, you’re opening yourself up to debate and the whole “don’t comment on my opinion” doesn’t fly. I don’t like Char either but he meets the mold for me. Y’all might wanna hash this one out.
One more for today, and I think an example of a character potentially evolving past passive beginnings...from Batman. Let's talk...Talia al Ghul.
Who is Talia?
Talia al Ghul was conceived after her father met her mother at Woodstock (I just love the image of Ra's al Ghul as a hippy having some pot brownies, btw)...Talia is a capable assassin and operative in the League of Assassins, initially extremely subservient to her father and a love interest for Batman. This little dynamic continued for a while until Talia began to grow dissaisfied with the status quo, claiming she was more than capable enough and broke from her father. Taking the name Talia Head, she first showed her capabilities when she broke to run Lexcorp when Lex Luthor became President. She then...manages to undermine Lex fucking Luthor, leaking all his dirty dealings, exposing his underhanded nature to the public and then sells all of Lexcorp's assets to the Wayne foundation, leaving a stunned Lex penniless and exposed as a criminal.
Now, Talia later partners with her sister Nyssa against her father, which ends in Ra's death, s he had predicted. Working under Nyssa, Nyssa is later killed and Talia assumes control and comes into her own. Reviving and mentoring Jason Todd as the Red Hood, Talia later reveals to Batman that years ago, as a result of their liaison? He has a son named Damian. Talia later monitors the Black Glove crisis that ends with Batman seemingly dead...Talia begins to use the League of Assassins, she has members of the Black Glove, including Bruce's treacherous lover Jezebel Jet, murdered...and then reveals she once implanted Damian with an implant that allows her to hijack his body. She gives this to Deathstroke to allow him to use Damian to fight Dick grayson, who Talia believes is holding her son back from his full potential. After this, she and Damian have a confrontation where Talia declares she is too much a perfectionist to accept Damian as anything less than what she wants. Declaring if they must be enemies, Damian states he hopes he will be a worthy one and departs.
Now, upon Bruce's return and his Batman Initiative, Talia founds Leviathan,a shadowy organization, to counter it. Talia completely bedevils Batman, puts a bounty on Damian and manipulates and pushes Bruce to his very limits. She has all of Gotham's infrastructure infiltrated by her men, claiming to quote the other wiki "that she is providing the poor with purpose by arming them and giving them slogans to chant, as well as an enemy to fight. Talia says Batman must choose between saving Gotham from suicide or saving their son Damian from a death sentence," bringing him to the brink and using a clone of damian called The Heretic to fight him. Damian is killed, Talia destroys Wayne tower and challenges Bruce to a duel. Talia manages to poison Batman, but is betrayed by Red Hood and shot by Kathy Kane, falling to her death, before her body vanishes with Damian's. Talia is later revived with Damian by Ra's, and after recovering her memory, ends up waging a war against the villain Den Darga, outplaying him as well and helping Batman save the world with Damian, coming to an uneasy truce as she withdraws back to the League of Assassins, where she remains now, a complicated enemy and ally alike.
Is she charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
She's...a pretty excellent planner as Leviathan showed. She's gotten closer to bringing down Gotham and Batman than 99 percent of his enemies ever did. Talia is also nothing but charming. People fall for her constantly. Even Batman, the most guarded hero there is, has fallen to her charms at times, and for charisma? She's got it. In spades. She's an incredible leader when she puts her minds to it, and a dangerous villain. Pass here. She's her father's daughter, alright.
Is she a bastard? Too much?
Saw the above? She's her father's daughter alright. Talia has done some awful things. She's an egomaniac as much as Ra's, she's killed a lot of people, she almost destroys Gotham and allows her own son to die, and tries to kill Batman, her 'beloved.' Yeah, Talia is dangerous as you get.
However, she's driven by her father's ideals of 'saving' the world in the end. She has a code of honor and her dismantling the Black Glove is because of her...complexity. She loves Batman/Bruce, and despite her rejection of him, she loves Damian as well, finally reaching a sort of peace with them at the end, and when Damian is dying she briefly surrenders to emotion before steeling herself anew. She's capable of reason, and she has loved ones, and she's nowhere near the most depraved villain Bruce faces.
Conclusion?
Here is an example where I think development improves the character. Talia shows she's worthy of being the heiress of al Ghul in the end, and Grant Morrison did a great job with her on his run, that's really defined the character.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Talia.
Not that it alters my vote, but she used to have raped Bruce before Retcons happened, right?
Watch me destroying my country
Sinbad and Char. Also Talia
Edited by lrrose on Jul 22nd 2018 at 2:35:41 PM
Oh, right, I forgot that:
Okay, let me clarify this: There was a graphic novel that detailed the marriage between Bruce and Talia, that was consensual, resulting in a possible son. Grant Morrison later had Talia drug and rape Bruce...however, Morrison admitted this was him having made a mistake and hadn't remembered it was consensual. He and Peter Tomasi retconned it to consensual again. So, as to your question? Yes and no, but as of now? No rape, just Batman 'following his heart' as Tomasi wrote it.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 22nd 2018 at 11:38:34 AM
Callahan. Sinbad, Char, and Talia.
I almost thought of proposing Molly Hale, in spite of the fact that she's five years old. But no, I won't.
Anyway Butler.
Who is Butler?
Butler is the Big Bad of the sixth Pokémon movie. As a child, he fell in love with a girl named Diane. As an adult Butler joined Team Magma and proposed the idea to create a Groudon from a fossilized remnant. However, his experiment failed due to the lack of power, and Butler was expelled from Team Magma. Butler vowed that he would get back at Team Magma by successfully creating Groudon. Together with Diane, they searched for a strong power source, only available once a millennium. That power was the Millennium Comet and the Pokémon capable of using the energy emitted: Jirachi. Butler and Diane found Jirachi in its hibernating crystallized form.
Whenever the Millennium Comet comes around, there is a festival celebrating its presence. As Butler and Diane were professionally magicians, they performed their tricks at the festival, with Team Rocket disguised as clowns assisting. Of course since this is a Pokémon movie, Ash and friends watched the performance. Diane was holding the crystal when Max heard a voice from it and rushed to the stage followed by Ash. Butler realized that he could use Max to befriend Jirachi. Then for fun, Butler and Diane decided to use Ash and Max as part of their next trick. After that, Team Rocket attacked, but Butler and Ash fought them off, tricking the audience into thinking that Team Rocket was part of the act.
Butler and Diane informed Max about Jirachi in the crystal, and how it needs the Millennium Comet and a chosen friend to wake up. Diane gave Max the crystal as Max was clearly the friend that it needed. Sure enough, Jirachi awoke later that evening, and Butler and Diane watched as Max wished for snacks, causing snacks from a snack bar to fill up Butler's bus.
The next day, Butler hired Ash and Brock as clowns to replace Team Rocket while Max continued to play with Jirachi. However, the Disaster Pokémon Absol attacked, seeking Jirachi. Ash and May fought against Absol, with the battle ending with Butler luring Absol into a booby trap, landing it in a cage and then ordering his Kirlia to put it to sleep.
That night, Butler pulled off his scheme. While Max and Jirarchi were sleeping, Butler made off with Jirachi and to his tent. Butler put Jirachi into a machine that would torture it until it opened its true eye, which allow Butler and Diane the power of the Millennium Comet and be able to revive Groudon. However, the energy was too much for the machine, causing it to explode just as Ash and friends got to the tent, Butler marveling at the sheer amount of energy despite his ruined machine. Diane tried to to talk Butler out of his ambitions, but he refused, claiming that he was doing it for her. Butler tried to take back Jirachi, but Pikachu and soon Absol prevented his Dusclops from stopping them, and Diane helped the group onto the bus as they made way for Jirachi's home in Forina. Butler ordered his Mightyena to follow the bus and place a tracking beacon. Now able to trail them, Butler decided to discretely follow them in a blimp.
Eventually, the group made it to Jirachi's cave, where it would rest for the next millennium. However, as Jirach rested and opened its true eye, Butler then launched his attack, using energy beams to trap the gang in the cave and kidnap Jirachi. Butler then put Jirachi into a new machine, one that would better make use of its power and revive Groudon. Ash battled on a wild Flygon with Butler battling on a Salamance, while Max went and freed Jirachi. However, it was too late, as the machine finished the markings of Groudon on the ground, and sure enough, Groudon began to revive.
Except no, it was not a Groudon that was born, but rather an Eldritch Abomination that looked like Groudon, but was clearly not. Butler watched in horror as this monster began absorbing the life around it and admitted to the group that not even he had a plan to counter this. The fake Groudon tried to absorb Butler, but he was saved by Diane, who was absorbed instead. Butler realized that the only way to stop the monster was to put Jirachi back into the machine and have it absorb the energy. Ash didn't trust Butler, but Jirachi did as Butler truly loved Diane. Butler had Ash, Max, Jirachi, and Flygon distract the monster while he set up the machine. With the machine ready and Jirachi in place, Ash started it up the machine. Having its energy aborbed, Groudon tried to absorb Jirachi, but Butler protected it and was absorbed instead. Jirachi then used its energy to destroy the Groudon in Doom Desire, freeing everyone absorbed by the monster.
In the end, Butler and Diane decided to stay in Forina as being together was the most important thing for either of them.
Is he charismatic? Charming? Thinks on his feet?
Yes. Butler is one of those Pokémon villains who is very pleasant to be around. Hell, he an ally half the time. And notably, he does love Diane, which is an important factor in his redemption towards the end. Of course as a stage magician, one must be pleasant to the audience, and he fulfills that quite well.
Butler only loses because of circumstances no one could predict. He successfully awakens Jirachi and entraps Absol. When his machine is destroyed because of the power, he pulls out another one that can handle it. When the group flees with Jirachi, Butler tracks them down easily and captures Jirachi. And even in the end, it is his plan that save everybody.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
He is a bit mad, as he desires revenge on Team Magma above everything. Not to mention that he is willing to torture Jirachi to win. However, he is not evil, as his love for Diane eventually trumps his hatred towards Team Magma.
Verdict?
I must say if we're doing quotes, can we somehow incorporate this famous quote from Lex Luthor (DCAU)?
Edited by Shadao on Jul 22nd 2018 at 1:42:41 AM