The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:
"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."
This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.
Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.
2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.
3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.
4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.
Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.
MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM
Planeswalker
I would say she is unintentionally unsympathetic because fans heavily disagreed with the writers that Abby dying would have been a sadder ending than the ending they got. But that's just me.
Oissu!
she/her
YMMV.Frozen 2013 has this:
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Elsa tossing away her royal tiara on a whim elicited some of this, with some viewers criticising what, in real life, would be an enormous show of disrespect for a symbol of her family's hegemony and the traditions of her kingdom. Considering Elsa's story is one of reconciliation, ending with her returning to rule as queen, one has to wonder if she ever feels a bit guilty about throwing one of her kingdom's priceless heirlooms away like rubbish. Fortunately, The Stinger shows that it fell into good hands.
Goku Black
That's a really weird entry. I don't think I've ever heard someone bring up something so weird.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lots of coffee
I've seen a lot of criticism about Elsa's behavior in that film, and none of it ever has to do with her throwing her tiara away.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Repeated attempts to list examples of both Unintentionally Unsympathetic on the WandaVision page were made, often removed, finally with a note to add to get permission from this page, which I wasn't aware of.
On the show, the population of a small New Jersey town is mindcontrolled into being part of an idyllic suburbia fantasy centered around the titular character. Four episodes in, it becomes apparent that the title character is the one behind it.
The show has a couple of opposing views in conflict over how to handle the situation; Hayward, who views Wanda as a terrorist wants to take out her out with extreme prejudice, and Monica (plus Darcy and Jimmy) who are more sympathetic to Wanda and wants to reach out to her and talk her into letting the town go. The show is sympathetic to Monica and co's point of view, but Hayward can still come across as fairly understandable given the situation.
- He isn't wrong in his description of Wanda's past misdeeds, which gets him called a dick.
- He only gets aggressive after Wanda forcefully expels Monica from the town, who herself says Wanda is behind it all.
- Hayward had already sent in a man in to investigate, who then never returned.
At the same time Monica and her side can come across as more sympathetic to Wanda than they should be. Monica employs some Insane Troll Logic to defend Wanda, arguing that she could have taken more people hostage but didn't. She also accuses Hayward of being willing to burn the town down, which is a huge accusation even taking into account his earlier attempt to have Wanda killed.
Discarded and Feeling Blue
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Slow your roll there. We don't know for sure at this point that Wanda is completely in control, based on how the last episode ended.
We shouldn't attempt to add examples for this show until it's completely wrapped up, because right now anything could happen.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
If you've been to Ask The Tropers in the past few weeks you
probably noticed it coming up repeatedly.
One of the first ones ended with "might as well wait and see" because... we might as well wait and see.
To be honest, there's almost no doubt in my mind that Hayward will qualify for an Unintentionally Sympathetic given how hard people are stanning him and misrepresenting both him and the other cast to make him look better. It's evident that there's more sympathy for him than I would expect the creators to have intended because honestly, he's written as such a cartoonish Obstructive Bureaucrat General Ripper that I don't think nuance was planned and each reveal serves to make him look worse.
But given how whammy pretty much every episode has been since it got into gear, any entry would be obsolete in a week until the show's over. The revelation of Project Cataract in particular casts a lot of doubt on his motives. But it's possible that by the end of the series he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist and sympathizing with him somewhat was the point. I also wouldn't be surprised if they keep him as one-dimensional as he's been so far.
But yeah. At the end of the day, an entry will likely be made but it needs to be documenting the Audience Reaction, not trying to make the argument that he's right and misrepresenting him and others in the process.
If people want to begin discussing this here and now we can but it honestly just feels pointless.
Regarding Elsa: What a bizarre entry. Cut it.
Edited by Larkmarn on Feb 23rd 2021 at 2:40:25 PM
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
I think certain instances of the argument can be adequately judged without waiting for the season to end, partly due to the arguments the characters make (Monica's appeal to potential worse circumstances) or because neither we not the characters have all the information.
The debrief scene is a prime example of this, where Hayward gets called a dick for bringing up Wanda's past actions. Even if he is scapegoating Wanda, Darcy and Woo don't know this and they have no leg to stand on.
Same goes as both Wanda and Hayward believe Wanda is behind the Hex. If/when it turns out that isn't, then that doesn't necessarily vindicates Monica since she had no idea about Agatha. In essence, she'd be lucky rather than right.
It was agreed upon in the discussion page for WandaVision that we would wait with Unintentinally sympathetic, DILP and Alternative Character Interpretation regarding Hayward.
Edited by Unoriginalusername3 on Feb 24th 2021 at 7:50:44 PM
See, that's what I mean by "misrepresenting other characters." He gets called a dick for being a dick. To a peer from another branch of the government. And actively trying to give less information about the situation. Setting aside future revelations calling his motives into question, "not being overtly lying but actively trying to ignore experts during a briefing" is rude at best, if not counterproductive since he's, you know. Actively trying to prevent any discussion of, say, Wanda and Vision's relationship which might be useful here. He's not being called a dick for accurately stating Wanda's past actions. He's being a dick for glossing over the rest of her past actions.
And it's not like he was concerned about brevity given the fact he was happy to interrupt to have a little aside about superhero nicknames.
Edited by Larkmarn on Feb 24th 2021 at 2:35:10 PM
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Heel
I see somebody mentioned Hawk from Cobra Kai a few pages back. Well I wanted to bring up another character his actor played beforehand: Kirby Buckets.
NOTE: This is going to get quite detailed, since I doubt most people know the show as well enough as I do to comment on this.
I personally often have a hard time siding with Kirby on the show, especially when he's dealing with his sister Dawn. Let me explain:
- Kirby is a cartoonist who wants to be a successful animator like his hero Mac McCallister (a thinly veiled knock-off of Seth MacFarlane) and he goes on a lot of adventures with his friends Fish and Eli. His cartoons make him quite popular in school and earns him the respect of his parents.
- Dawn, meanwhile, is Kirby's older sister. She is quite selfish and a Jerkass. She had just gotten her braces taken off right before the start of the show, and was constantly picked on by everyone, including Kirby, who draw her as the dinosaur monster "Dawnzilla". Her parents show constant favoritism towards Kirby, every attempt at her getting a boyfriend goes horribly wrong, and every episode ends in her being embarrassed in some way. Apparently, because of her personality, the audience is supposed to feel she deserves everything bad that happens to her. I seem to think of her as a Jerkass Woobie sort of character.
This comes to me as very similar to the dynamic between SpongeBob and Squidward (to use a reference that everyone will understand). Like Squidward, I often feel much more sympathy for Dawn than I do for Kirby, whose life is already mostly perfect like SpongeBob's. But no, we're supposed to root for the latter because they're the "nice guys", and laugh at the other character's constant misery. Maybe it's something that changes with age. When you're a kid, you'll always be siding with Kirby or SpongeBob and react the way you're supposed to. Grown-ups (or in Dawn's case, girls), on the other hand, will watch and say "wait, this is messed up."
However, I'm worried my argument might come off as a bit biased, because, I'll confess, I do have quite a big crush on Dawn whenever I watch the show (see for yourself). But I can't be the only person in the world who sees this. Even if you have never seen the show, shoot me an opinion.
P.S.: If you have Disney+ go give Kirby Buckets a watch. It's surprisingly enjoyable (in my opinion); honestly Disney XD's live action stuff was, for the most part, more enjoyable than Disney Channel's output of the era, and far superior to Nickelodeon's shows, and I feel they all get overlooked in favor of animated content. I'd watch Kirby Buckets over Pickle & Peanut any day.
Edited by LaptopGuy on Feb 24th 2021 at 12:31:16 PM
I no longer edit on TV Tropes but will continue as an occasional forum poster.
Lots of coffee
I mean, I guess it sounds like it could fit if you make an entry with the information you provided here? But if you admit to being biased, maybe I'd want to hear opinions from other people who watch the show.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
I really don't want to get into a No, You situation in regarding to "misrepresenting other characters". One troper's apologist is another's ignored expert, I guess.
Frankly, both sides get their turn with the unreasonble ball, but the show intends one to be right and the other wrong.
Edited by Lighthammer on Feb 25th 2021 at 5:43:47 AM
Heel
Yeah, the show’s not particularly well-known and I don’t think there’s a lot of coverage of it. This is probably one I’m going to have to vouch for myself.
Still, I was wondering if the examples work based solely on the information I posted.
I no longer edit on TV Tropes but will continue as an occasional forum poster.
"The Juice is Loose."
I have never heard of Kirby Buckets, but he sounds like he could count. However, if you admit you are biased, maybe look at places like Tumblr or other places fans might gather, and see if you can find a significant number who feel the same.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 25th 2021 at 11:37:06 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
kiby :]
As someone who hated the show because I always felt Dawn was treated unfairly...I guess Kirby can count. But as said, this is anti-show bias talking, so take it with a grain of salt.
(Don't) take me home.
Discarded and Feeling Blue
I might've seen like one episode of it, but I could also just be making that up, since I mostly recognize the kid from his role in Jinxed, which, surprisingly, doesn't have a page yet.
But yeah, I don't know anything about these characters to help.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
To me, it sounds like the Spongebob Episode "Pressure" where both sides are intentionally unlikeable. Kirby sounds like an Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonist while his sister sounds almost as bad.
Heel
I never said Dawn was likeable; only (Unintentionally) sympathetic. You can be a Jerkass and a sympathetic character (whether intentionally or not) at the same time; they literally made an entire trope for this. Squidward Tentacles, Plankton, and Dr. Doofenshmirtz all say hi.
However, I don't think Kirby Buckets was ever written with "both sides are bad" in mind. Kirby does a short narration at the beginning of almost every episode and his inner thoughts are constantly shown via his cartoons. We are always meant to be on Kirby's side.
OK, yes, there are quite a few times on the show when Kirby was clearly meant to be in the wrong, but those are usually for situations when his actions hurt other Face characters on the show like Fish and Eli or his parents. He's always supposed to be seen the good guy when dealing with Dawn.
Edited by LaptopGuy on Feb 25th 2021 at 7:41:35 AM
I no longer edit on TV Tropes but will continue as an occasional forum poster.
I'm just going to say go for it.
Heel
OK, I made my post for Unintentionally Unsympathetic:
- The titular character of Kirby Buckets is supposed to be designed as an Audience Surrogate for the show's main demographic of preteen boys, whose interests always seem to come into conflict with girls' and aren't given the same mainstream acceptance (a theme Disney XD leans heavily into with their original shows; in fact it's kind of a Reality Subtext for the network's breakaway from the girl-oriented Disney Channel). This cultural clash is best exemplified in the show's central conflict, Kirby's Sibling Rivalry with his older sister Dawn. Dawn is supposed to be a symbol of a "girl culture" that looks down upon Kirby's unique boy interests (itself an inherently sexist message), and Kirby is intended to be seen as a plucky underdog fighting back against a Big Sister Bully. The only problem? The power dynamic is more often than not, completely backwards: In-Universe, Kirby is usually a very popular guy as he is a prominent cartoonist, while Dawn is liked by very few people. Even their own parents constantly show more favoritism towards Kirby and berate Dawn constantly. And because of that, "Dawnzilla", Kirby's caricature of Dawn, seems to come off as Kirby being a bully more than anything else. So yeah, it's no surprise that many viewers have a hard time taking Kirby's side on the show.
Give me some feedback.
Believe it or not, I actually like the show. I seem to enjoy it from a So Bad, It's Good or Narm Charm standpoint (in fact I don't think it's that bad at all). And I will admit that I only ever got into the show because I have a crush on Dawn. So I will admit there's some bias in my entry too. I've been watching plenty of it on Disney Plus this past week, so yeah, it's kind of atop my mind right now.
Edited by LaptopGuy on Feb 25th 2021 at 8:01:44 AM
I no longer edit on TV Tropes but will continue as an occasional forum poster.
kiby :]
Hmm..."inherently sexist"? Not sure about that.
(Don't) take me home.
Heel
Why don't you think it's sexist to say that people can't like things made for the opposite gender? Maybe that's a hidden subtext I took from it but not an openly blatant message.
(Though I'll remove that bit if you can give me a good reason to.)
I no longer edit on TV Tropes but will continue as an occasional forum poster.
kiby :]
It just seems like it's jumping to conclusions to think that Disney is inherently placing sexist subtext onto an everyday kid's show by having boys and girls indulge in separate hobbies, but maybe that's just me.
(Don't) take me home.
It doesn't. I was just making a comparison. But the real issue it seems is whether or not she is Unintentionally Unsympathetic or Intentionally Unsympathetic.