Base Breaking Character Cleanup

As part of the RWBY fandom. There's a small neutral Group but generally its one or the other.

TBH I'm a bit iffy on the Neutral group thing. I mean I don't think there's any Fandom where everyone is either one opinion or the other.

So, how exactly is discussion done here? I did have one possible suggestion in mind. That being Miyako Hoshino from WATATEN!: an Angel Flew Down to Me. The series in itself...is about a college student who develops a "crush" on an elementary school-grade girl. So, yeah, already from that premise, there is much of a divide with how Miyako is perceived by the fandom for the manga and anime adaptation. For the anime, the first episodes has Miyako act creepily towards Hana, to the point that one of the main arguments that people make about the show is that it is showing a predator grooming a child, in this case, Miyako would make sweets for Hana in return for her wearing cosplay outfits.

However, the divide comes into place where despite Miyako's creepiness towards Hana, she is otherwise liked by a segment of the fandom for her incompetence at socializing or because her earlier creepy behavior starts to disappear when the anime completed its run.

I didn't know whether to take this here or the Scrappy Clean-Up thread, but I guess there's a lot of overlap between the two threads.

I found an entry regarding Two-Face on the YMMV page for Batman Forever. The problem is that he's already listed as The Scrappy on the same page, and the entry even mentions he's seen as a Scrappy. As it's been pointed out several times, a character can't be both. I've never seen Forever and I'm not as familiar with the discussion surrounding it compared with the other films, but which one would Two-Face fall under? Here's the Base-Breaking Character entry, as well as The Scrappy for comparison's sake:

For what it's worth, the Base-Breaking Character entry borders on a non-example (the entry points out how there's a general consensus, which goes against the spirit of the trope). I just want some feedback if I should cut it, or if the Scrappy entry needs work too.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Apr 23rd 2019 at 11:27:02 AM

It sounds closer to The Scrappy, but this is another case where I'm not sure what the point of either one is because audience reaction to the film was negative across the board. (I honestly think I've seen more praise for Batman and Robin than Batman Forever.) While poorly received, I don't think Two-Face was noticeably more poorly received than the rest of the film.

I also don't think it's good practice for an entry to tell readers to look at another entry.

Well, I removed the Two-Face example and redirected to the thread for my edit reason. If there's any objections to this, please feel free to speak up.

Well, I'm really not sure we can measure the size of the groups. I know I don't feel like I'm in a minority, but perception and reality often aren't the same thing, so I could easily be wrong.

In my experience, the love/hate arguments are the most vocal compared to the neutral or 'meh' crowds (the neutral group are more likely to just clam up and wait for it to blow over or talk about some other subject because we can't be arsed to get involved). There's also a Die for Our Ship problem with Blake that exacerbates and even causes many (possibly most) love/hate arguments. That said, it's the hate group that seems far more vocal, active (and simply larger) than any other group.

Personally, I don't actually see many fights over Blake in any direction. Even where people may like or dislike Blake, most discussions I've seen tend to be mature and calm (until shipping issues kick off a more excitable group). I suppose the habit of walking away or discussing other things instead of getting involved in any love/hate arguments may make the neutral crowd seem smaller than they actually are, but the love crowd also seem to shrink and melt away when the hate starts flowing — and there is a lot of hate.

On the subject of hate. I've mentioned it before, but this show is a magnet for hate. The sheer amount of hate videos and videos that claim to be reviews or critiques, but which are really just rants is amazing (for all the wrong reasons). The people who hate on Blake are often also hating on Yang and Cinder... and usually a fair few other characters, too. In my experience, even the people who love Blake tend to back down and walk away from these people. So, there's a silencing effect on the love crowd, too.

I don't know why some works are susceptible to this but, the truth is, I don't know how to trope Base-Breaking Character in RWBY because of this distortion.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Apr 26th 2019 at 2:13:28 PM

I kno I already brought it before but BaseBreakingCharacter.Game Of Thrones definitely needs some cleanup. Many entries are one sided criticism and need jerk reactions.

I predominantly spend time amongst the critique side of the RWBY fandom, so I wouldn't know if the hate is a Vocal Minority or not, but Blake is one of the few characters who I could genuinely see as a Base-Breaking Character.

Yang and Ruby get a lot of criticism but it's more mild criticism like "I hate how Yang's character is written now" or "Ruby is static, and not in a good way". Blake is the one with the most overt critique, but at the same time I know she has a lot of fans.

I purposed Cinder Fall from RWBY for Scrappy status and was told that a discussion about her was already being held here. Believe Cinder actually should be list under Scrappy for the series because she is the most consistently dislike/hated character in the show. While she was intended to be hated due to the fact all the horrible things that happened in the first three volumes were her doing and she killed a much beloved character, but she is also hated due to a perceived poor quality in the writing and direction in her. Common criticisms are her lack of a backstory, no motivations (other than a lust for power), a flat personality, and numerous stupid decisions and mistakes she has made despite being intended to be a cunning and series villain. She was almost rescued from the scrappy heap when people actually enjoyed her role in volume 4, but this was undone in volume 5 when she reverted back to the same flat character she was before. One moment that was derided by critics and fan upon re-watch is when she changed the entire plan and defied her master all to get revenge on Ruby, only to ignore her during the actual battle (even when Ruby is helpless) so she can toy with someone she could have killed with no effort, it's on the verge of becoming a never live it down moment for her. Support for Cinder is very small owning to the fact that critics hate her for the above mentioned reasons and the fans that don't hate her for those reason typically hate her for how despicable she is.

For reference I will also link videos made by youtubers Vexed Viewer, mediaocrity4, and Unicorn of War's videos on Cinder. They are all fans of RWBY and want it to improve, the proof is in their reviews of the individual episodes of volume 6. If you need more explanation of Cinder's poor reception, their they are. Vexed Viewer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdkYc__NA_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwsN6lFq9JM mediaocrity4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMsl0Di_Fb0 Unicorn of War: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UgNfFbogpU

Questions, comments, and/or concerns are welcome.

First, My apologies for including links for videos in my previous post, I was unaware it was against the rules at the time. However, I still stand by those examples as they prove that it a common opinion and I feel as thought I included their points well enough. If I need to expand any of them, please inform me.

Second, in regards to popularity polls, not only are they extremely misleading on principle, but Cinder doesn't do that well anyway. The poll that I found from Anime Bracket (link here: https://animebracket.com/results/-r-rwby-favorite-character-tournament-4/) was a tournament based poll so the results are even more shoddy than usual and can't used as a bases for Cinder popularity. Another poll conducted on straw poll (link here:https://www.strawpoll.me/12039528) has 73% of the votes spread across the four members of team RWBY and Qrow (with the highest of those five, Weiss, having 21% (488) of votes by herself), where as Cinder had 1% of votes. The highest Cinder has received on any polls was one hosted by the RWBY Wiki (link here: https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/RWBY_Wiki:Poll_Results_Archive) for best villain where she placed third with 22.42% behind Roman with 34.14% and Neo with 29.67%, but the poll woefully out dated having been close back in February 5th, 2015.

Thirdly, (and I only bring this up as a way of covering all my bases), being intended to be hated does not disqualify one for Scrappy status if their are more reason people hate them (see: Unalaq from The Legend of Korra and Ramsay Snow from Telltale's Game of Thrones).

Once again, I welcome questions, comments, and/or concerns.

Note: if I broke the rule by including links in general and not just video links, I am sorry again, I only included them to prove I wasn't making up numbers.

There is no rule against links of any kind (except links to illegal or inappropriate content). The problem with your other post was that you just gave a bunch of links without explaining what they link to. You should have explained the arguments contained in each video.

Roger

Polls along don't determine popularity. You need to amass a sample size large enough, gather evidence from numerous sources, collect the data, examine the results, and then present your findings so that it is an unbiased result.

For example, I could easily say people hate Cinder if I only looked at the parts of the fandom that hate her, but then that would be a biased result since I only looked at one section of the fandom.

Cinder does have her fans and even apologists, one of which I've had very bad run ins with, and while there are plenty of critics stating Cinder is a bad character, checking numerous sources like The Other Wiki, Tumblr, Reddit, Deviantart, the youtube comments section, Amino, etc., shows that she has her fans, whether due to applying Draco in Leather Pants to her, or because they Love to Hate her.

So she is more down the middle, hence her being on this thread.

Edited by RebelFalcon on May 18th 2019 at 10:10:19 AM

Polls are helpful when determining who isn't a Scrappy, but not as helpful when determining who is a Base-Breaking Character. This is because polls don't really tell you if there's a long-sustained conflict between two bases with very little or no middle ground.

I get the feeling the standard we have now for this trope may be a bit above what TV Tropes is capable of achieving. If we really want to determine who is and isn't a base breaking character in a reliable way, we would need to do actual research into it, maybe make something like a TV Tropes poll.

Again, RWBY is a show that attracts a great deal of hate. Several characters (of which Cinder is one) have a huge 'hate-following'. I'm not sure if that's the right term, but these characters don't simply have part of the fandom that hates them, they actively attract a following for whom it's almost a badge of honour to hate the character as much as they can. It's not a case of Complaining About Shows You Don't Watch (although RWBY does attract a lot of that), it's almost as if these people watch the show solely to hate on it — which is weird, but apparently is a thing for some fandoms.

The problem with this trope is that it needs an 'in-between' to simply not exist. The character in question has to be marmite — loved or hated with no in-between. I don't know any character in RWBY that definitely meets that. I think the closest any character might get is Adam, who is both hated well beyond his Hate Sink scope and receives enough support to send him into Draco in Leather Pants territory. But I don't know if he has a significant 'don't care' crowd, and I don't know if his supporters would classify as Vocal Minority, so he's the one I'd hesitate over. I've also previously stated that if the consensus for Blake is that she should be placed under this trope, I'd go along with it because, even though I personally disagree, I'd be in the minority (and that's fine).

Beyond Adam and Blake, I don't think the show has any genuine contenders for debate. Cinder has a sizeable 'don't care' crowd, along with plenty of haters and plenty of fans. She's neither The Scrappy nor a Base-Breaking Character.

Based on recent activity in this thread, the current tally we have is (note: I'm using 'tenative' for people who have stated they lean in a certain direction but they have questions they need answered before they will firmly agree or disagree):

• Cinder: (3 For, 1 Against, 1 proposing different trope)
  • For: Rebel Falcon, Silverblade2, Kylotrope
  • Against: Wyldchyld
  • The Scrappy: Professorchaos56
• Blake: (4 For (+1 Tentative), 2 Against (+1 Tentative))
  • For: Rebel Falcon, Silverblade2, Karxrida, Kylotrope
  • Tentatively For: Pichu-kun
  • Against: Wyldchyld, AnotherDuck
  • Tentatively Against: nrjxll

And, in connection with Redmess's comment about the idea of polling TVTropes (I assume that would actually be a Crowner) on whether or not a character should be a basebreaker or not, I think Rebel Falcon and I keeping a tally on the RWBY suggestions is already heading in that direction.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 19th 2019 at 7:39:39 PM

Two things.

One, I included the polls solely to disprove what was said on the other thread, that Cinder ranks high on the polls, which she doesn't. Like I said, they extremely misleading on principle.

Two, at what point does a characters fanbase disqualify them for Scrappy status? On the Total Drama YMMV page Mike and Zoey are both listed as the Scrappy, but they have their fans. If the Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater parts of Smallville's YMMV page are to be believe Davis Bloom has his fans and he is the Scrappy. If the entire point of The Scrappy is a character that is hated by many for all the wrong reason and loved/liked by few, where's the line?

I agree Redmess, the standard Tv Tropes has for this stuff is crazy high.

Rebel Falcon sorry the run in with the crazy fan.

DuckTales (2017) has what seems to be the entire cast in the Base Breaking Character folder.

And with fairly good reason. A lot of these characters have been changed quite a lot from their original characterization, especially Launchpad and Gyro.

And?

Could that not be condensed and rewritten into an entry for They Changed It, Now It Sucks!?

Maybe, but that also has a huge entry on its YMMV page so it'd likely need to be split off.

Too many of those Ducktales examples are just "Some people think X, some people think Y." Those are bad examples because they don't show a long-sustained conflict between two large factions with little to no middle ground.

I think that most of those entries need to be axed, especially since some of the entries read like they're trying to complain about the characters or, in the case of the Donald Duck entry, complain about fans of the character.

There are definitely detractors for these characters, the question is, how do we determine how big the various factions are?