Terra Tubes' Fake Difficulty in the trial-and-error wheels, in a game centred entirely on challenging but skill-based reflexes, makes it a keeper for me.
Edited by Albert3105 on Jan 8th 2023 at 10:51:36 AM
"Can you see what I see?"
YMMV.Mighty No 9 lists the game's Final Boss under That One Boss, which isn't usually allowed unless the boss is considered difficult even by Final Boss standards. I remember thinking so when I played the game, but I don't know if this is considered the popular opinion, especially since people tend to have a lot of problems in general with the bosses in that game.
Ever wanted to see the most inexplicably horrifying intro to a game ever?
The Unknown
I've heard people had issues with the Final Boss due to the sheer length of the fight and the boss's size.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Industrious Incisors
ThatOneLevel.Super Monkey Ball is a mess. Lots of bad indentation, natter, invalid grouping, abuse of spoiler tags... I'd also like to examine the actual entries because the game is Nintendo Hard in the higher challenge sets, so criteria may need to be stricter.
SoundCloud
Oof. Looking at that, it does need a fixing up
Industrious Incisors
Given the game has nothing more than an Excuse Plot, and most of the time the levels aren't puzzles which the challenge would be figuring out how to solve (I don't think any of the few that are are listed), and Master Challenge Mode isn't exactly treated as secret by the game or socials, shall I start by just stripping all spoilers?
Edit: Also, a folder for ROM hacks does not belong on the same page. I'm willing to assume they're valid examples, having not played them myself, so I won't say they need to be deleted, but where can they be moved to?
Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Jan 23rd 2023 at 9:56:03 AM
SoundCloud
She / Her
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I agree the ROM hacks shouldn't be on the same page, though I'm not 100% sure on where to move them. I'm also leaning on making that That One Level subpage Administrivia.Spoilers Off, kinda like how ThatOneBoss.The Binding Of Isaac is.
Industrious Incisors
Well, I’ll go through them game-by-game I guess.
First off, still think nothing in the series counts as a spoiler. Anything that may have been at one time has been progressed to Late-Arrival Spoiler in Sega’s promo materials.
I will say, I’m only familiar with the remake’s altered physics firsthand, so some I may not be able to be sure on.
- Getting to the Advanced Extras can be quite a challenge on its own since you can't lose a single life. Period. This also applies to getting to the Beginner Extras but that is comparatively easier.
- Similarly, if you want to unlock all the Master levels in Practice Mode, you may need to have infinite continues, since Master in this game cannot, generally speaking, be unlocked as a separate mode, even if you have completed Expert and Expert Extra stages without continues in the first place. Not a level; don’t think entire challenge runs can count for the trope even if they are game-imposed.
- Advanced 15 (Floor Bent). The level is a series of hairpin turns each sloped progressively more towards the outside of the level. The other problem is that each turn is also longer than the last one, making each turn exponentially harder, and you constantly have to struggle against gravity to make it. Your controller better be in good condition, or else you're going to have a bad time. Could well be the first real wall, particularly the last turn which is really steep and you have to enter with downward momentum to then fight against as well as gravity to turn around.
- Advanced 30 (Polar). A small level with a whole bunch of tiny orbiting platforms. You start at the center, and must move up each layer (and this is very hard) until you reach the goal. Even if you can clear it, you may die at still least once, which can be so frustrating if you're trying to get to the Advanced Extras (as explained above). There is a way to clear it quickly with the right timing though. Which brings us to... Far from the hardest level in the whole game, but it could well take a long time to amass the skill to do it consistently, preventing attempts at the later challenge sets
- Advanced Extra 5 (Polar Large). It's just like Advanced 30, except harder. The luxury of clearing the stage quickly has been removed through the addition of a segment so big that it might as well be its own level. The very last platform goes all the way around, but it's constantly flipping, so if you don't cross in exactly the right spot, you will fall to your death. This is what I would consider a functional Brutal Bonus Level for this difficulty set, even if there are harder bonus level series.
- Expert 4 (Excursion): appears early on in the game, yet is so difficult. The easy part is going through the turns and over the hills and rotating platforms (which can be a little frustrating at first for beginners to the level). The hardest part, though, is maneuvering your way around five tightly packed bumpers and then through a narrow (about 0.5 width) path that also happens to have a right-hand turn with a lens flare in the camera, and then a dip. If you manage to go through all that, you get to the goal. Still, it's not as difficult as Exam-C or Tracks, and it's spared from similar infamy by being among the very few stages you can skip in Expert. Could be a wake-up call, but Exam-C which is infamous is just a few levels later.
- Expert 7 (Exam-C). It's like Advanced 17 (Exam-B), but way worse, with the addition of an infamous narrow hill, the first occurrence of platforms that must be traversed diagonally, and a final long, curvy path that's only half as wide as your ball. It's hard to even get to the winding section without taking your time, but if you don't have at least 30 seconds left when you reach it, good luck making it to the goal in time. It really says something that early adverts suggested that this was going to be moved to the Master stages. Easy keep, easily one of the most infamous levels in the whole series
- The version of the level in Banana Mania bumped the time limit up from 60 seconds to 90 seconds, but the stage itself is still left unchanged. It's in fact the only level from 1 whose time limit is expanded beyond 60 seconds, cementing its infamy within that game. Not entirely true; the final curve path is a bit wider in Banana Mania. Does little to soften it, but not sure this isn’t natter. Maybe worth mentioning in the Banana Mania folder?
- Expert 9 (Tracks). All of the paths to the goal are skinny and curved, with the shorter paths being thinner. There is a way to bypass it all but it's arguably even harder to pull off. I think the widest track is manageable, but that may either be my skill level or Banana Mania’s physics softening it.
- Expert 14 (Invasion). It's a relatively small stage, but surprisingly difficult. You have to make your way past several bumpers (some of them moving) that are tightly packed together. The last three bumpers in particular are arranged on a thin walkway so that you have to be super precise maneuvering past them. Most likely you'll get flung off of the stage your first couple of tries. 'That last stretch is on its own really tight, since you have to roll along a very narrow path or else you either fall off or hit the bumper. Definitely a barrier.’
- Expert 17 (Tram). The stage consists of 7 rows divided by walls. To move past each wall, you have to go around onto either one of two large, over-sized circles spinning backwards. With bumpers attached to them. And the last row (which the goal is on) is elevated so you need the right amount of speed to roll over it or die trying. In Banana Mania, at least, it’s not that much harder than surrounding levels, and the lip doesn’t take that much to get over. Maybe in the original?
- Expert 21 (Twin Attacker). You must go down a narrow slope without getting knocked off by two giant, parallel blocks that shift from left to right. The path is so narrow that you pretty much have to get the adjusting just right. Too little and you'll get knocked off, too much and you'll fall off the track. Has an Original Layout version in Banana Mania. I think it’s hard to get the first time, but relatively easy to get consistent after the first clear. Given the arcade-style approach that encourages replaying the challenge modes, not sure if that’s a point agains.
- Expert 27 (Twin Cross) is just a breeze, considering its long lines of diagonal moving. 'I’ll need to expand on this.’
- Expert 42 (Checker) takes it up to eleven. It's nothing but platforms you need to traverse diagonally. It's comparatively easier to reach the blue goal than to reach Expert 27's, but still. Significantly later, so the requirements for TLO should be higher, and only the easiest goal should be worried about here, so maybe remove.
- Expert 32 (Curvature) is a long stage where you will need to charge through quickly until the last parts, where the path gets progressively skinnier until one with a quite skinny area that also requires a turn. Good luck. Only the last stretch is problematic, but it may indeed be that hard just because of that one part. Notably another level that got widened for Banana Mania, with the original layout as an optional bonus challenge.'''
- Expert 36 (Speedy Jam) is a faster variant of Advanced 21 (Middle Jam), both involving a track that bumpers move along in a figure-eight. To progress, you have to get in between two bumpers as they come and keep the timing up to get through to the end. A21 actually isn't so bad, but in E36, the bumpers move so fast that you practically need to be running in order to even get on, let alone get through the level! Personally, I think it’s only a problem at the point of intersection where you have to slide in a 90 degree turn when bumpers are coming at you from both sides, and even then not that much, but if that’s because of Banana Mania, this may need someone else to weigh in.
- Expert 43 (Carpet). This level intends to eat up most of your time with two pairs of slow-moving platforms. What makes it hard is only one platform of each pair is able to reach the stationary platform where you enter, and only the other can reach the stationary platform where you exit. You have to transfer between the two by dropping, and it's easy to slip off. Still, once you really get a hang of it it's not too bad, and once again it avoids infamy because it's another one of the only stages in Expert you can skip (thanks to Expert 42). Not seeing it. This one I’m sure isn’t just Banana Mania making it easier. The only threat is the psychological pressure of the timer since you have to wait and time things and move steadily.
- Expert Extra 9 (Sanctuary): While most of Expert 41 through Extra is surprisingly easy in comparison, this one then shows up to make sure you have to earn your way to the Master stages. It involves a stair case of partial spheres with platforms that get progressively smaller, until the last one can barely fit the goal. Your speed has to be perfect, or else you will be sent to your doom. I have to recuse myself here; I have this down too well.
- The master stages may be pure hell, but reaching them in the first place is already very hard! To clarify, if you want to reach the master stages, you must first clear both the Expert stages and the expert extra stages without a single continue, with the former containing some of the worst stages in Monkey Ball history! And even if you find them easy, you still have to survive 60 stagesnote back to back with only 3 lives. At least the sequel had the decency to give you up to 99 lives. These may all need to be treated as Brutal Bonus Level, but if not…
- Master 3 (Stamina Master). Got the Infinite Continues unlocked? No? You need them here. It's arguably three difficult levels in one. Here are two
takes on completing it. Definitely. One of the most infamous levels in the series.
- As Master 13 in Deluxe, it's solid evidence that 13 Is Unlucky, especially considering the less precise control stick of the PlayStation 2 and Xbox controllers makes subtle adjustments on the narrow peak even harder and the existence of Master Extra stages rendering usage of continues moot. Natter
- Master 5 (Dance Master) and Master 8 (Dodge Master) both consist of a bunch of obstacles moving all over the place that go so fast that if you run into them, you'll likely be knocked off the stage. Notably, they did get nerfed for Banana Mania, with the original speed as bonus levels. But still, they’re no Stamina Master.
- Master 9 (Bridge Master), the only Master stage in the original arcade version, consists entirely of a bridge that starts off narrow and gets wire-thin by the end. And it's not a straight path, there's a lot of turns in it. And they aren't curvy turns either; they are 90 degree turns. Not sure. There are some relatively easy skips possible, which at this late and as high an intended difficult soften it ridiculously.
- Master 10 (Monkey Master) is a kinetic art piece of AiAi balancing on a block, with the goal on the top of AiAi's head. Take a shot every time you charge for the goal and miss it by mere inches, finish your glass if you happened to be running a continue-less or even a deathless run only for this stage to show up and destroy it. Mind you, due to how the stage works, you absolutely have to charge for the goal to have any chance of beating it. I’m not seeing it. I don’t think the charge is as strict as said. You do have to approach the hips at a precise angle, but that’s nothing for this late in the game.
- Hell, even the credits minigame deserves a mention. A bunch of bananas keep appearing in front of you, and a bunch of letters from the credits fall down to obstruct your attempts to get the bananas. Bumping into a letter costs 10 bananas, and it's all too easy to get into a spot where you'll be involuntarily smacked around repeatedly and thus lose an insane amount of bananas. This doesn’t even have a fail condition.
"Can you see what I see?"
YMMV.Mega Man 1 has half of the game's bosses listed under That One Boss, and over half of the game's stages under That One Level. The entry for TOL even starts with "It's probably easier to list the levels that aren't that one level." Most of the entries are parts that are known for being difficult, but this is for That One Thing, so some of them probably need to be cut.
Of the entries for TOB, I think Elec Man and Yellow Devil are keepers (The former being probably the most difficult of the Robot Master bosses, and the latter being easily the most infamously difficult boss in the game), and for TOL, Ice Man and Wily 1 (The former having a notoriously difficult and glitchy platforming segment, the latter being a Difficulty Spike that ends with the Yellow Devil fight).
Ever wanted to see the most inexplicably horrifying intro to a game ever?
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
Proceed with edits.
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates
I think Gutsman's stage can be kept as well because those lifts are infamously difficult to maneuver and require a lot more precision than any of the other stages.
"Can you see what I see?"
Which stagex end up getting cut it partly a matter of how many stages can be included before it goes beyond the scope of That One Level and becomes must covering most of the game.
One factor that's worth considering is the fact that certain stages become easier depending on what items you have. I mentioned Ice Man's stage before, and that one is infamous, but a lot of players do that stage later in the game, after getting the Magnet Beam ability, which can be used to completely skip the hardest part of that stage. Guts Man, on the other hand, is typically done earlier, so most players don't have the Magnet Beam by then, and have to figure out how to cross the lifts legitimately, especially since Guts Man's ability is needed to get the Magnet Beam without replaying any stages.
I would say that without optional abilities, Ice Man's is harder, but it's also the one that more people will have the items that make it easier. Is that enough to justify keeping both of them?
Ever wanted to see the most inexplicably horrifying intro to a game ever?
The Unknown
I played the game semi-recently, and the difficulty of the Guts Man lifts is a bit overblown. They're still pretty hard, but not infuriating like some other things.
Speaking of: those disappearing blocks in Ice Man's stage, however? They suck. That stage can stay.
Can't remember how bad Wily 1 was so no comment there.
Yellow Devil is probably the only TOB worth keeping. Beating it legit is so hard that most people abuse an exploit. All the Robot Masters kind of blur together difficulty-wise, so I don't think Elec Man is that special there.
Edited by Karxrida on Jan 30th 2023 at 3:34:36 AM
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
"Can you see what I see?"
I also think that Guts Man's stage is overblown, but it is still a fairly infamous one, especially since a lot of players suggest going to it early in the Robot Master order.
Wily 1 is moreso infamous for the Yellow Devil. The stage itself does tend to give people trouble, but it also becomes significantly easier when you know all the best places to use special weapons, which not everyone is savvy to their first time.
If I were to remove all That One Boss entries aside from Yellow Devil, should I include a note along the lines of "While the Robot Master fights can all be trivialized if you use their weakness..."?
Ever wanted to see the most inexplicably horrifying intro to a game ever?
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
"Can you see what I see?"
Consensus to remove everything except for Ice Man stage and Yellow Devil? I feel like we (mostly me) were more iffy on Guts Man's stage.
This does beg a question, as the Mega Man games in general have a lot of TOB and TOL entries: How much should the use of boss weapons and utility items factor in to what entries can stay? Certain stages can have their entire dynamic changed based on whether or not the player has specific abilities when they play them.
Ever wanted to see the most inexplicably horrifying intro to a game ever?
The Unknown
I wouldn't bother. This is pretty universal to Mega Man games.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
I think that examples from game mods should go on a dedicated subpage such as Game Mods.
Edited by DecafGrub47393 on Jan 30th 2023 at 6:23:29 AM
The Unknown
Found this on YMMV.Castlevania II Simons Quest.
- That One Boss: While Dracula is normally very easy to cheese thanks to Laurels and certain weapons that can be used to slaughter him without much of a sweat, it's almost necessary to do it. Speedrunners with less resources, or minimalist/challenge players that don't try to go for cheesy strategies, have to deal with an absolute mess of scythes as Dracula warps all around the screen every other frame. If you don't have Laurels or don't try to stunlock him with something like the Holy Water, he can slaughter you in seconds and you can barely fight back. The entire fight hinges on you cheesing him or him cheesing you.
Everything I've seen about this game's Dracula is that it's considered one of the easiest final bosses in the series, and the entry is reliant on challenge run rules to make a case.
I think it should be cut.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
I agree. If the boss is only hard due to a self-imposed challenge, it doesn't belong on the page.
"Can you see what I see?"
Remind me, is Dracula only considered easy because of exploits, or are the weapons people tend to use on him considered to be the ones you should be using by that point in the game?
Ever wanted to see the most inexplicably horrifying intro to a game ever?
Laurels give you a period of invulnerability, which is pretty much required for crossing a poison swamp that's necessary for getting one of the Plot Coupons required to reach Dracula. So all you have to do is buy more than you need for the swamp to have some over for the boss fight.
She / Her
Maybe there's another trope for a boss (and/or maybe something else in a video game) that's difficult due to a self-imposed challenge. However, I don't feel That One Boss covers it since that doesn't seem to involve self-imposed challenges.
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
Dracula's definitely the hardest boss in Castlevania 2, but there are only three bosses, and the other two are pathetic. Additionally Dracula is the final boss, and is definitely not difficult by the standards of a Castlevania final boss. He's an easy cut; not every game has That One Boss.
I've added Turbo Tunnel and Clinger Winger back. Any other opinions are welcome, though.