Moral Event Horizon cleanup

Eh, I would consider Vader to be too questionable an example to list under MEH.

It's YMMV for a reason. From what I can tell, there's a large enough contingent of Star Wars fans who don't consider him redeemed (and he of course still isn't redeemed in-universe.) I'd have Vader as a valid example.

The "redeemed later" problem also exists when an example is written before the work is complete, but that's a different topic entirely.

In that case, since only Eraqus buys the whole Xehanort getting redeemed thing in KHIII, would he still count? Or Kokichi from Danganronpa is still despised by the survivors despite helping them, his MEH crossing of making Gonta the murderer of Miu in Case 4, would that still count?

I don't think Kokichi qualifies; he quite explicitly redeemed himself.

Did he? I'm not familiar with V3's plot and only know Kokichi for his jerkassery, so...

Kokichi's ultimately portrayed as a morally grey character, but sort of?

He sacrifices himself in an elaborate plan to end the killing game in chapter 5, and it's also revealed he hates killing at the beginning of the next chapter. Though in-universe, most of the characters don't seem to have forgiven him, with Keebo being the only one to acknowledge his sacrifice iirc. In fact, during the final trial, Shuichi only mentions Kaito and Kaede and leaves Kokichi out when talking about those who worked to end the killing game. So idk if it counts if he's not necessarily redeemed in the eyes of the characters, but the reveals about him do bring to question whether his past actions were genuine crosses of the Moral Event Horizon or while not excusable, were justified based off of the position he was in.

This paragraph in MEH's description is concerning.

Note the word irredeemably. It is a demonstration of permanent evil: the moment which confirms that this character will always be a bad person. The moment where you realize that it's simply not possible for them to wash away that damned spot of blood. The moment any Freudian Excuse they may have loses all meaning. And while many villains stay evil throughout, if you can find it in your soul to even consider forgiving this person, there's something freakishly wrong with you. Their existence is a blight on humanity. They. Are. Vile.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 20th 2020 at 4:19:37 PM

YMMV.Family Guy S 8 E 11 Dial Meg For Murder

• Moral Event Horizon: Lois scolding Meg for dating a criminal wasn't too bad, since criminals can be dangerous.. but when Meg was under arrest for harboring said criminal when he escaped, Lois never bothered to stand up for her. Worse, it's implied that Lois (and by extension, the rest of the Griffin family) never bothered to visit her. It's a miracle Meg didn't disown or even kill her mother for this.

I kind of feel like this is a shoehorn, considering this is all forgotten about an episode later.

This is on Infinity Train:

• Simon crosses it when he orders MT and Alan-Dracula to be grinded on the wheels, saying that a "null" with independent thought became "bothersome" and could've hindered the Apex' "progress". And then there's "The Color Clock Car" where he murders Tuba then happily tells Hazel that she's better off without the gorilla, how he killed her, and even boasting about said kill to Grace to which which even she is appalled at.

That's really vitrolic. Like reAlly so

Yeah, I don't think anyone says Lois is irredeemably evil after that episode.

For Family Guy, that's far from the MEH. In that very episode, Meg beats up and rapes her own father. Not standing up for your daughter getting arrested is nothing by those standards.

...why is this in the page?

Frankly, I am thinking this needs a trip to TRS. It looks like there are some bits about the definition that need straightening out (e.g if characters who get redeemed in-story can count).

I think the objectivity of this trope seems to be outweighing the subjectivity at this point. I know why we have to have such strict standards, but sometimes the narrative makes it very clear that the character has taken a turn for the worst that can never be fully reversed, even if they are still sympathetic for other qualities and/or have a Redemption Equals Death moment. (I think straight-up redemption that allows them to be a sympathetic character and not bogged down by their MEH moment would disqualify them. The MEH should haunt their character everywhere they go.)

I'm thinking of BoJack Horseman for this reference: by notion of being the title character, he's got to be sympathetic in some way, but he also does some horrible things that the narrative makes it clear he can never fully come back from. But the show also kind of deconstructs the idea of the MEH too.

I’ve deleted that bit since I’ve showed it here. Probably should’ve linked to here in the edit reason though.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 21st 2020 at 2:20:01 PM

I know I bring this up a lot (or used to) in other cleanups, but do you guys think Ashfur from Warrior Cats counts as having crossed the MEH despite the narrative easily forgiving him when he's in StarClan for trying to burn cats who were barely teenagers alive, but it's likely that he's Bramblestar's imposter in The Broken Code having possessed the dying leader as revenge for Squirrelflight dumping him, and proceeds to have several cats exiled and when they fight against him, stats a war, forcing RiverClan and WindClan to attempt to drive out the codebreakers as well as ShadowClan and SkyClan something only several non-redeemed cats like Brokenstar have tried to do?

About the TRS idea, this has been on the Sandbox since that sandbox was made.

As for Ashfur, I personally think he was an irredeemable pos, but the books disagree...

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 21st 2020 at 2:21:04 PM

My impression is MEH is when audiences feel the narrative has intentionally portrayed them as irredeemable, YMMV due to the possibility of several points. Audience disagreement with the narrative over their crossing the line are separate tropes.

For Vader, he didn't do anything so stand out evil in the Original Trilogy. Destroying Alderaan was on Tarkin and set a bar for MEH Vader falls short of. It was later media including the Sequel Trilogy that added such serious wrongdoing which isn't supposed to count as we know he redeems himself but made him Unintentionally Unsympathetic which is a separate issue that shouldn't count as MEH which has to be intentional. Vader being treated as unforgivable in-work is a separate trope.

I was going to remove Designated Hero examples of MEH as by definition unintentional. Do we want to keep for now as a case for a TRS?

I found this MEH on the Jetsons the Movie YMMV:

• When Spacely's drills kill some innocent Grungies, he knew they were there and he started drilling anyway, and he fought to keep drilling until George shut the drill down via pinpoint sabotage.

Doesn't Spacely do a Heel Face Turn in the end, or at least is convinced to stop the drilling, thus removing the MEH?

Hey guys, I'm working on a Wick Check here. Join if you're interested.

YMMV.The Simpsons S 6 E 21 The PTA Disbands

• Moral Event Horizon: The reenactment soldiers cross the line by chasing after a whole classroom with the intent of murder for "trying to learn for free", ending in them lynching Uter when he can't catch up to the school bus. And Skinner crosses this line (at least in the eyes of some) by showing no concern for Uter's fate, just admitting that permission slips will keep the boy's parents from suing him. The Season 7 episode "Much Apu About Nothing", where Skinner attacks Uter for being German (since everyone in town is on an anti-immigrant kick) only made this even worse. And it gets worse than that on the season 11 episode "Guess Who's Coming to Criticize Dinner", where he's having dinner with Uter's parents from Germany, who want to know what happened to their child (and Skinner tries to distract them by bringing up the fact that Homer has become a food critic).

The reenactment soldiers are too minor to leave any lasting impact, and Skinner is just a Jerkass, not a villain.

To be fair, I don't think ANYONE in The Simpsons crosses the MEH, due to it being a black comedy and very few actions being played seriously.

It's theoretically possible for one-shot characters to cross it in a work like The Simpsons, but unlikely to say the least. Skinner, on the other hand, is most certainly not an example.

I feel like the movie villain crossed it, but that's about it.