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Broken Base Cleanup

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Pichu-kun ... Since: Jan, 2001
...
#1151: Jul 6th 2019 at 7:03:05 AM

From Jimmy Neutron's Nicktoon Blast

  • Broken Base: The attraction is by far the most polarizing in Universal Orlando's history. Opinions of it range from it being absolutely godawful and deserving of being shut down to it being an underrated modern classic that was closed too soon.

Someoneman Since: Nov, 2011
#1152: Jul 7th 2019 at 3:56:06 PM

[up] The "base" in "Broken Base" is short for fanbase. Hatedom isn't considered part of the fanbase, so anything involving their opinions is not Broken Base.

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1153: Jul 7th 2019 at 7:07:46 PM

So as July 21st draws ever closer, and I only got one bit of feedback on my first writeup, here is the Diamond Redemption example for BrokenBase.Steven Universe, V2:

  • From first being shown sympathetically in the "Out of This World" arc all the way to their actual Heel–Face Turn in "Change Your Mind", the Diamonds getting redeemed was and still is a hot button topic in the fandom. One side thinks the Diamonds have done too many heinous acts, from the treatment of the Gems under them to the destruction and genocide of dozens of planets, to even consider the idea of redemption, while the other thinks that not redeeming in favor of shattering or bubbling them indefinitely would go against the show's entire message of "everyone deserves a second chance". A third group believes the idea of redeeming the Diamonds is good in concept, but thinks it was very rushed and poorly handled in the show proper.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#1154: Jul 10th 2019 at 2:35:08 AM

The Assassins Creed trailer example sounds more like trivia, so it should be moved there and written more neutrally.

Optimism is a duty.
WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
#1155: Jul 10th 2019 at 1:58:53 PM

From YMMV.The Rising Of The Shield Hero

Broken Base: In regards to the anime adaptation; does it work as a creative adaptation with its own alterations that make it refreshing for people to get into, or is it a poor adaptation that changes too much and downplays many important elements of the story to appeal more to the more commonly liked elements of the Isekai genre? Those who like the changes often point out that Naofumi is more likeable in the anime and enjoy the cathartic events of the story for how he is mistreated, alongside finding the changes very minor and not worth mentioning. Those who don't however often point out how many of the more moral grey areas of the story (Naofumi's desire for revenge, the Queens cunning side, etc) are important elements that the anime failed to properly adapt, making characters like Naofumi, the Queen, Raphtalia, and the other Heroes less interesting as a result.

The anime recently ended and the example is talking about the series overall and about elements that dont happen until later violating the 6 month rule. Delete?

Karxrida The Unknown from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
The Unknown
#1156: Jul 10th 2019 at 2:03:48 PM

Delete.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Pichu-kun ... Since: Jan, 2001
...
#1157: Jul 10th 2019 at 5:09:56 PM

From Skillet

  • Broken Base:
    • Some fans only like their self-titled album, some like the recent radio friendly albums, and others like everything in between.
    • Is American Noise a less intense but good all the same song or painfully Switchfoot-esque generic CCM?

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1158: Jul 10th 2019 at 5:52:38 PM

[up] Slice 'em with a chainsaw.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
MisterApes-a-lot Since: Mar, 2018
#1159: Jul 17th 2019 at 2:38:30 PM

Star Trek: Enterprise has really lengthy entries for Broken Base. How can we cut them down?

    Star Trek Enterprise 
  • The Star Trek fanbase in general is divided up between people who think Enterprise was either an ambitious-if-flawed series and those who think it was deservedly cancelled. The split likely occurred during DS9/VOY's run. Those who craved realism and space politics had their own show with DS9, while the TOS lovers had their seven years of VOY (If you hadn't kept up with DS9 or VOY, "Broken Bow" had two or three scenes that old-timers would probably find distasteful). Both sides got funneled into watching ENT. Toss in the TOS fans lured by the promise of classic Trek adventures, and you wind up with an unpleasable hydra.
    The Agony Booth: With a lot of old-school Trekkies (understandably) seeing Enterprise as an attempt to 're-do' TOS, and with a lot of new-school Trekkies (understandably) pissed that the new show wasn't going to build upon the TNG-DS9-Voyager continuity, the show went on to polarize fans like never before. If you feel indifferent towards Enterprise, chances are you're not really that into Star Trek.
  • There is a serious divide among fans of the series over the closing "These are the voyages..." narration in the last episode. Some fans thought it was cool that they divided the narration up among the various Captains of the Enterprise, while others saw it as a Take That! to Scott Bakula, who (they argue) had earned the right to make the entire narration himself.
    • A similar break was caused by the 2009 reboot when Leonard Nimoy gave the narration rather than Chris Pine. This was fortunately resolved in the sequel.
  • The Broken Base reached its climax around 2002-2003 when, coupled with the failure of Star Trek: Nemesis at the box office, Trek fandom fractured into "bashers" (those who could no longer abide anything related to Trek made by the then-current production regime) and "gushers" (who generally defended the current works, but were scorned by the bashers for blindly liking whatever was put in front of them). As the first Trek series that lived and died during the Internet age, Trek forums were frequently the site of figurative bloodbaths, with both bashers and gushers being banned for flaming each other. There were also some extreme reports of fans claiming to want to do physical harm to Enterprise's producers, and one forum saw an infamous exchange where a fan claimed to have gotten so upset at the news that the Borg were to appear in Enterprise that he smashed his television. When Enterprise finally did end, many fans divorced themselves from "Trekdom"; the JJ Abrams reboot (which divided the fanbase even more) won some back, but others moved on to other franchises.
  • The Broken Base effect was further emphasized by the fact that whatever the showrunners tried to do to address concerns was slapped down: fans were upset the series didn't have Star Trek in the title. The title was added, and they were criticized for doing so. The "Temporal Cold War" plotline was abandoned due to being unpopular; they were criticized for abandoning it. An attempt at breaking status quo with the season-long Xindi arc was condemned by the same people who said they wanted Enterprise to stop being a clone of Voyager and TOS. Even the final season's "Hail Mary" pass of devoting most of the season to prequeling TOS and TNG, something fans had wanted since day 1, was rejected. Ironically, the series was officially cancelled during production of an episode that replicated the costumes and sets of the Star Trek TOS era. But by this point the base was so broken that had William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy become regulars the fanbase would have still turned up their nose at it.
  • To any moderates or anyone with any opinions that fell between the battle lines, this Broken Base could lead to absolute lethality in the forums. God help you if you thought the series was a reasonably enjoyable, if flawed, prequel that despite problems actually did quite well with the material it had to work with, showing an imperfect crew who struggled in defining their place and the place of humanity in a quite often hostile galaxy - making mistakes along the way (probably unintended by the writers but which had greater meaning and ramifications within the context of the show) - with the improvements in season 4 making astounding retroactive sense out of many of the issues of the series and Star Trek franchise. There are a small group who feel that despite the wasted potential of plot lines and canon, and a handful of rather painful episodes that pop up here and there which are drowned in Moral Dissonance, hypocrisy and stupidity - like "Dear Doctor" for one - this was still a rather enjoyable show. Of course, expect to be called a troll if you voiced such an opinion at the time. You could get slaughtered (bloodily) in the forums from both sides for voicing any of this interpretation, particularly if you never payed any attention to any Word of God information given about the series, and ended up thinking that the series fitted in with continuity, or, horror of horrors, that the Temporal Cold War was an interesting mostly background arc that gave maneuverability and flexibility with regards to whether the series would end up leading into the franchise continuity or into an alternate timeline, giving a more dynamic appeal to a series that could otherwise have been boxed-in by franchise canon.
  • On the other hand, there are some fans (especially those critical of the reboot) who dismiss any criticism of the show and blame fans for "ruining the franchise" by not supporting the show enough.
  • The launch of Star Trek: Discovery has caused yet another fracturing of the base, with some claiming that Discovery has helped them gain a new appreciation of Enterprise, for at least trying to stay true to the spirit of Star Trek even if the execution wasn't always that great, and just as many claiming that Discovery shows how outdated Enterprise seemed even when it first aired (and that's before you get to those fans who love both shows, or don't like either of them).

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1160: Jul 19th 2019 at 2:40:18 PM

Okay, let's see:

  • This is a franchise discussion and therefore isn't relevant to the Enterprise fandom specifically. Moreover, it's an inaccurate assessment of the dynamics of how the fans of the different franchises work. On top of that, there's a quote thrown in that's a back-handed slap in the face to any ST fans who don't have any strong feelings about ENT — automatically dismissing the concept of the all-important Broken Base 'middle ground' as not being true fans of the franchise. But, as I said in my first sentence, this is a franchise discussion: fandom versus fandom. It doesn't belong on a page devoted to a specific fandom (in this case Enterprise). Remove
  • I think this bullet point is fine. Keep
    • The sub-bullet about the reboot films is irrelevant. Remove
  • The Bashers versus Gushers. Is this a genuine Broken Base entry? We're talking about a group of people that used to be part of the fandom, but who turned on all things Trek. Can they be legitimately called part of the fandom? How do you handle ex-fans who stick around just to hate and flame the fandom they used to support? Is there a different trope for this because it doesn't feel like Broken Base is quite the right trope. Or is this a rare genuine example of trope's original intent when first created? Don't know
  • This is a single bullet point of many different examples, but the theme here is Unpleasable Fanbase not Broken Base. Remove and turn it into an Unpleasable Fanbase entry
  • Okay, this is problematic. It's too long, it suggests a three-way war between two extremes versus a middle ground. That alone suggests Broken Base isn't the right trope. However, the biggest problem is that this comes across as a 'moderate' complaining about the other sides just not getting how wonderful the show really is. My instinct is therefore to suggest deleting this entry entirely. However, not being active in this specific fandom, I'm not sure what the true state of play really is to know if there is a genuine example hiding in here. If there is, it needs a complete rewrite to both cut down length and remove the self-congratulatory complaining. Rewrite if salvageable, otherwise Remove
  • Again with the reboot. Remove
  • The final bullet point admits there are people who love both shows or hate both shows, indicating middle grounds exist. It's borderline Franchise anyway, but the existence of a middle ground indicates it's not a genuine example and is just 'fandoms never have 100% consensus'. Remove

So, in short:

    Examples 

KEEP

  • There is a serious divide among fans of the series over the closing "These are the voyages..." narration in the last episode. Some fans thought it was cool that they divided the narration up among the various Captains of the Enterprise, while others saw it as a Take That! to Scott Bakula, who (they argue) had earned the right to make the entire narration himself.

UNSURE ABOUT (Rewrites needed if there's anything salvageable)

  • The Broken Base reached its climax around 2002-2003 when, coupled with the failure of Star Trek: Nemesis at the box office, Trek fandom fractured into "bashers" (those who could no longer abide anything related to Trek made by the then-current production regime) and "gushers" (who generally defended the current works, but were scorned by the bashers for blindly liking whatever was put in front of them). As the first Trek series that lived and died during the Internet age, Trek forums were frequently the site of figurative bloodbaths, with both bashers and gushers being banned for flaming each other. There were also some extreme reports of fans claiming to want to do physical harm to Enterprise's producers, and one forum saw an infamous exchange where a fan claimed to have gotten so upset at the news that the Borg were to appear in Enterprise that he smashed his television. When Enterprise finally did end, many fans divorced themselves from "Trekdom"; the JJ Abrams reboot (which divided the fanbase even more) won some back, but others moved on to other franchises.
  • To any moderates or anyone with any opinions that fell between the battle lines, this Broken Base could lead to absolute lethality in the forums. God help you if you thought the series was a reasonably enjoyable, if flawed, prequel that despite problems actually did quite well with the material it had to work with, showing an imperfect crew who struggled in defining their place and the place of humanity in a quite often hostile galaxy - making mistakes along the way (probably unintended by the writers but which had greater meaning and ramifications within the context of the show) - with the improvements in season 4 making astounding retroactive sense out of many of the issues of the series and Star Trek franchise. There are a small group who feel that despite the wasted potential of plot lines and canon, and a handful of rather painful episodes that pop up here and there which are drowned in Moral Dissonance, hypocrisy and stupidity - like "Dear Doctor" for one - this was still a rather enjoyable show. Of course, expect to be called a troll if you voiced such an opinion at the time. You could get slaughtered (bloodily) in the forums from both sides for voicing any of this interpretation, particularly if you never payed any attention to any Word of God information given about the series, and ended up thinking that the series fitted in with continuity, or, horror of horrors, that the Temporal Cold War was an interesting mostly background arc that gave maneuverability and flexibility with regards to whether the series would end up leading into the franchise continuity or into an alternate timeline, giving a more dynamic appeal to a series that could otherwise have been boxed-in by franchise canon.

WRONG TROPE

  • Unpleasable Fanbase: The Broken Base effect was further emphasized by the fact that whatever the showrunners tried to do to address concerns was slapped down: fans were upset the series didn't have Star Trek in the title. The title was added, and they were criticized for doing so. The "Temporal Cold War" plotline was abandoned due to being unpopular; they were criticized for abandoning it. An attempt at breaking status quo with the season-long Xindi arc was condemned by the same people who said they wanted Enterprise to stop being a clone of Voyager and TOS. Even the final season's "Hail Mary" pass of devoting most of the season to prequeling TOS and TNG, something fans had wanted since day 1, was rejected. Ironically, the series was officially cancelled during production of an episode that replicated the costumes and sets of the Star Trek TOS era. But by this point the base was so broken that had William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy become regulars the fanbase would have still turned up their nose at it.

REMOVE

  • The Star Trek fanbase in general is divided up between people who think Enterprise was either an ambitious-if-flawed series and those who think it was deservedly cancelled. The split likely occurred during DS9/VOY's run. Those who craved realism and space politics had their own show with DS9, while the TOS lovers had their seven years of VOY (If you hadn't kept up with DS9 or VOY, "Broken Bow" had two or three scenes that old-timers would probably find distasteful). Both sides got funneled into watching ENT. Toss in the TOS fans lured by the promise of classic Trek adventures, and you wind up with an unpleasable hydra.
    The Agony Booth: With a lot of old-school Trekkies (understandably) seeing Enterprise as an attempt to 're-do' TOS, and with a lot of new-school Trekkies (understandably) pissed that the new show wasn't going to build upon the TNG-DS9-Voyager continuity, the show went on to polarize fans like never before. If you feel indifferent towards Enterprise, chances are you're not really that into Star Trek.
  • A similar break was caused by the 2009 reboot when Leonard Nimoy gave the narration rather than Chris Pine. This was fortunately resolved in the sequel.
  • On the other hand, there are some fans (especially those critical of the reboot) who dismiss any criticism of the show and blame fans for "ruining the franchise" by not supporting the show enough.
  • The launch of Star Trek: Discovery has caused yet another fracturing of the base, with some claiming that Discovery has helped them gain a new appreciation of Enterprise, for at least trying to stay true to the spirit of Star Trek even if the execution wasn't always that great, and just as many claiming that Discovery shows how outdated Enterprise seemed even when it first aired (and that's before you get to those fans who love both shows, or don't like either of them).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 19th 2019 at 10:49:10 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#1161: Jul 19th 2019 at 3:40:50 PM

The Discovery example might belong under Star Trek or Fandom Rivalry. I also think the "Bashers" still belonged to the fandom; they loved the older works, after all, the way that entry is written suggests they just disliked anything new.

Edited by PhiSat on Jul 19th 2019 at 4:43:35 AM

Oissu!
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1162: Jul 19th 2019 at 3:49:19 PM

[up]Ah, the Bashers entry didn't make it clear. Where it mentions leaving the fandom towards the end of the entry, it makes it seem like they turned their back on all things Trek. Perhaps it could be rewritten to clean up the entry and make it clear that they remain franchise supporters (of the older works), it's just ENT they turned their backs on?

Given that the Fandom Rivalry page quote is a Kirk versus Picard quote, the trope does seem applicable to Discovery. I don't mind if the entry is moved to that trope instead of being deleted.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 19th 2019 at 11:51:44 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#1163: Jul 19th 2019 at 4:19:28 PM

I think the line about "anything made by the current team" or whatever suggests they were fans of the old stuff that hated anything made by the then-current writers, while the "Gushers" praised all things Trek, including things the "Bashers" thought unacceptable to like.

As to the other point, I don't know if we're holding Broken Base to the same standards as Base-Breaking Character, but the community voted to allow a middle ground on base breaking characters if it was the type of middle ground that loudly complained about the sustained conflict between the warring groups or was constantly getting caught in the crossfire from the arguing groups. I'm not sure how this would be rewritten but it seems to be saying that anyone in the middle ground was subjected to hate from both sides for not agreeing with them.

Edited by PhiSat on Jul 19th 2019 at 5:20:11 AM

Oissu!
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1164: Jul 19th 2019 at 4:40:50 PM

Okay, I didn't know that. But it makes sense if it's turning the fandom into a three-way war.

I can see a way to rewrite that bullet point, but I'm not involved in the ENT fandom so I wouldn't be the right person to do it.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 19th 2019 at 12:46:02 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#1165: Jul 20th 2019 at 1:41:27 AM

So any more comments on the FBE/React pages?

Optimism is a duty.
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#1166: Jul 21st 2019 at 6:11:23 PM

I don't know where else to put this and it may in fact be better reserved for Base-Breaking Character thread but for the upcoming Steven Universe example, could we perhaps put in that for some it's not that the Diamonds are redeemed, but it is the fact that White Diamond is redeemed? Or is that too needlessly complicated for the example?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1167: Jul 26th 2019 at 3:30:59 AM

[up] What do you mean? When Diamond redemption is brought up, it's about all three Diamonds, not one of them specifically.

Speaking of, here's one final repost. If there are no other qualms about this example, I'll be adding it to the page.

  • From first being shown sympathetically in the "Out of This World" arc all the way to their actual Heel–Face Turn in "Change Your Mind", the Diamonds getting redeemed was and still is a hot button topic in the fandom. One side thinks the Diamonds have done too many heinous acts, from the treatment of the Gems under them to the destruction and genocide of dozens of planets, to even consider the idea of redemption, while the other thinks that not redeeming in favor of shattering or bubbling them indefinitely would go against the show's entire message of "everyone deserves a second chance". A third group believes the idea of redeeming the Diamonds is good in concept, but thinks it was very rushed and poorly handled in the show proper.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jul 26th 2019 at 6:31:15 AM

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#1168: Jul 26th 2019 at 1:26:02 PM

[up] I mean I find a common opinion is that it's white diamonds redemption specifically that some people have a problem with.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#1169: Jul 26th 2019 at 1:56:57 PM

Yeah, most of what I've seen is either the scope of the Diamonds' Offscreen Villainy is way too large for the redemption to work in the time frame the show portrayed (especially White Diamond's), or that villains with that much Offscreen Villainy shouldn't be redeemed at all.

Edited by PhiSat on Jul 26th 2019 at 2:57:52 AM

Oissu!
ssjSega Since: Jun, 2018
#1170: Jul 27th 2019 at 7:27:20 AM

I recently found this entry in the My Hero Academia Base-Breaking Character page:


  • While Izuku still has some fans, it's clear that his popularity has fallen ever since the First Popularity Post, with many people starting to see him as a Vanilla Protagonist and prefering Bakugo or Todoroki for the main role. The former for having an amazing Character Development and the latter for his sad Back Story.

From what I keep hearing and seeing about broken base, it's supposed to be a long-term and highly divided conflict. I don't know much about the complete popularity of the characters in the franchise barring Mineta (who's The Scrappy), but I don't think this is a proper entry anyway since it doesn't acknowledge both sides of the argument. It only says that Izuku has become less popular and that Shoto and Katsuki are more interesting. It doesn't explain why people see him as a Vanilla Protagonist and just states that people see him as it. It also doesn't go over his detractors and defenders; why people find him uninteresting and why the other half rebukes these statements or do consider him interesting. I'm not entirely sure since this is my first time using the clean-up thread, but I'd appreciate further insight on this and if a better entry can be made regarding Izuku.

WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
#1171: Jul 27th 2019 at 7:28:57 AM

[up]It does do a poor job on explaining why he is a BBC. I would remove it.

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#1172: Jul 27th 2019 at 8:51:56 AM

It's also misuse of Vanilla Protagonist, which is for characters who are intentionally made normal to either make them more relatable, or make the supporting cast stand out in comparison. It's not for whining about boring characters.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#1173: Aug 4th 2019 at 8:50:36 AM

The Steven Universe example has yet to go up. What's the status of it?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#1174: Aug 6th 2019 at 4:07:18 PM

For YMMV/RWBY

  • Volume 6 proved to be extremely controversial among the community, namely the final episodes of the volume. Most criticisms of the volume are in regard to Salem and Ozpin's backstories, the battle against Cordovin and the Leviathan, and the death of Adam Taurus. Many people went as far as outright dropping the show due to this.
  • Several IRL controversies have further damaged the show and Rooster Teeth's reputations, such as Lettergate, the increase in subscription prices for RT First, them being exposed to have put their staff through crunch, and the firing of Vic Mignogna.

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1175: Aug 6th 2019 at 4:25:46 PM

[up] If all those events happened in the last six months, they should be removed on principle.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

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