A Single Unified LGBT Character Thread

@Merseyuser 1: Does he have any hobbies? Hobbies are a pretty good way to flesh out a character, especially when at least one of them has almost nothing to do with spotlighted facets of your character.

@T Paradox: I would imagine that would depend partly on the aliens in question. E.g. Species A might find one thing about humans bizarre to them while Species B might have that thing in common with humans and find something else about humans to be weird instead.

Edit: I didn't expect this comment to be a pagetopper...

Edited by Miss_Desperado on May 21st 2019 at 6:37:18 AM

If not for this anchor I'd be dancing between the stars. At least I can try to write better vampire stories than Twilight.

Yeah, it would be informed by what's normal for the alien race in question, but I'm also kind of thinking about what would be in the "so, you're working closely with/frequently socializing with other species" general galactic guidebook.

Like, from a human perspective, I don't want to make too much about the almost vestigial link between sex and gender, but when you open it up to alien perspectives, you could have cultures that divide genders by other arbitrary features, ones that entirely self-sort, ones that don't have any comparable concept, etc.

Edited by TParadox on May 21st 2019 at 8:54:18 AM

Fresh-eyed movie blog

You could use "two reproductive sexes" for the biological stuff maybe? Anomalies in genetic expression would presumably be just as available in any aliens as they are in humans, so even if mentioned in the quick guide it'd be a broad warning "norm-breaking stuff happens with everybody, don't be alarmed"

As for identities... Are you placing it in contemporary state of acceptance still being a work in progress or a more cosmopolitan future? Something like "Cultural gender presentation and identification is largely informed by reproductive sexes, but freedom of expression is allowed." could work for a detached sorta tone.

Put some thought in how the same guide would detail other aliens with other cultural norms, to figure a consistent tone and terminology they would use.

Wow, that's a really thoughtful recommendation, I like it. Heck, maybe I could get some use out of it, after all, I've got multiple alien species with their own reproductive and gender quirks in my own stories.

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I'd like some feedback on my first attempt at drafting a gender-fluid character.

Zinnea, Zin for short, is a mage, born physically female but often makes forays into masculinity via a self-installed network of magical tattoos all connected to a masculine/feminine spectrum dial immediately below her belly button. Zin is pretty easygoing over whether and when to use "he" or "she", using feminine pronouns for legal records and whenever else simplicity's sake is first and foremost, only insisting on masculine pronouns when he sets the dial to obvious masculinity, and usually rolling with "Sure, Let's Go with That" whenever the dial is set in the (proportionally large) ambiguous zone and someone takes their best guess at which set of pronouns to use. And if you reread what I just wrote, you'll see an example of how the narrative switches pronouns according to Zinnea's decisions on where to set the dial.

Zin gets into adventures where unorthodox use of magically enhanced tailoring comes in handy in combat, e.g. Cloth Fu. I haven't yet made a final decision on whether to make tailoring Zin's career, former career, hobby or what, whatever option I pick will be a factor in determining what gets Zin into the adventures, e.g. spying, bounty hunting, detective work, being the go-to-tailor for a group that has a lot of enemies seeking Revenge by Proxy, or just plain being a Plot Magnet.

If not for this anchor I'd be dancing between the stars. At least I can try to write better vampire stories than Twilight.

@ Miss_Desperado:

I've developed his characterization and hobbies - he's a good chef, likes food and experimenting with recipes, is someone who enjoys quizzes and is competitive over them (not in a Jerkass way, just a Worthy Opponent style way!), his own persomal genealogy and enjoys the news, particularly American and Canadian affairs.

It's the LGBY side of his Knowledge Broker character that's the harder part to develop, since he was originally conceived as a Knowledge Broker who was straight and white (although, I've now given him a new background of Canadian person of American descent, Canadian person of Indian (Asia, not Native American descent), Canadian person of Scottish descent, American person of Canadian descent, American person of Filipino descent - his mother is Filipino-American).

I've made him multiethnic to try and be fairly realistic - since many people are multiethnic - rather than a Token Minority (the genealogy part does come into play as he's reading books about it in a library, but that's just there for the setting he's in).

He is a major character, not just a Knowledge Broker.

I think I should point out: The UK does have legal names. Theoretically, your legal name is "what people call you" (meaning nicknames, etc are legal names), but in practise, you're only allowed one on your documents (and you'll have to use the ones on your documents for a lot of official stuff).

Source: A British trans woman who legally changed her name.

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer

@Merseyuser 1: Nice on the hobbies

"He isn't transgender in the sense of going from male to female and undergoing surgery, so probably would fit more as genderfluid, genderqueer or non-binary (correct me if I'm wrong)"

Yeah, somewhere there. Though I admit I have less interaction with NB/fluid/etc persons than transgendered ones that are strongly leaning into one end of the gender spectrum. A few I did interact with, one was swinging from one strict identity to another at the drop of the hat, while others are just uncaring of the labels. Overall I don't think it's an issue of which strict checkboxes you fill but rather personal non-obliging labelling. (Though speaking of checkboxes I'll note that surgery is not a defining trait of being transgender, a lot of them go without.)
To avoid Creepy Crossdresser vibes, hmm, just portray them with casualness, not calling attention to the fact that they changed, not have characters spooked? If they're friendly around the town, then have people just accept them in either presentation.

@Merseyuser 1: Cool hobbies, nice! What would happen if some Naïve Newcomer character doesn't initially realize that your character's masculine presentation and your character's feminine presentation are the same person until your character outright says so? (Come to think of it, I could ask the same thing about my own character Zin...)

If not for this anchor I'd be dancing between the stars. At least I can try to write better vampire stories than Twilight.

My question in regards to this topic going to be a bit different. I feature LGBT+ characters in my stories with regularity and all kinds of portrayals, both in my fantasy and my stand-alone 'regular' literary work and I'm set in their portrayals. I'm comfortable with them and believe I'm writing their portrayals with respect. Time will tell, of course.

Please bear with me, I go for broke with details.

In the stand-alone, the MC has five blood siblings: two older brothers, a younger sister, a half-brother, and an identical twin brother who began her transition to a sister eleven years before the plot. Still debating whether or not she'll have bottom surgery by this point, she had to piecemeal the process.

A murder has been committed and because their half-brother was arrested on a misdemeanor disorderly charge three years prior, his information is in the system and he's picked up for questioning.

The DNA found on the body and on scene shows it's NOT the half-brother but there's a mitochondrial match and it's an XY sequence. So MC, the elder brothers, and the twin sister are picked up.

I know identical twins are basically copy/paste and their DNA is indistinguishable. I know hormone therapies have no effect on existing chromosomes.

My question is, will the twin sister's hormone therapies register even a slight difference in the police-issued DNA test? The cops have other items of evidence pointing to MC (spoilers: he's innocent, it's never in doubt narrative-wise, I just love conspiracy stories) but I made the mistake of having an old episode of L&O:SVU rolling in my dumb brain when I outlined the broad strokes and now I'm nervous that I screwed up.

I have a journal article on hormone therapies and transitioning but genetics was my blindspot in HS Biology. Talking to a human - or series of humans - is more helpful. I love feedback.

Thank you and hopefully I didn't slay you all with this wall of text

You've answered your own question: no.

Genealogic and forensic DNA testing looks for well-characterized repetitions of a nucleotide sequence that are known to vary in number, or in single nucleotide changes at a specific location. In either case, the mutations are in stable portions of the chromosomes or mitochondria that are unlikely to change even in a single generation.

Even with the more intensive (and expensive) procedures needed to identify which of two monozygotic twins a sample best matches, the laboratory still will not be able to identify any changes specific to exogenous hormones.

It's also important to note that the police do not "issue the test". They collect a sample, usually with a sterile swab provided and shipped in sealed containers, which are sent to a certified laboratory for analysis.

Thank you. Like I said, I have other pieces of evidences in the conspiracy that point to MC (Jake), but here's a copy/paste from the L&O wiki on that episode (it's called Identity) and why it messed me up. I realize I'm a dumbass for getting my law and medical degrees from L&O.

• However, the right amount of days have passed for all the estrogen to pass through Lindsay's (now answering only to Lucas) system so it's impossible to differentiate between Logan's and Lindsay's DNA.** from the wiki.

Since the sister in my story (Jessie) is constantly on her hormone therapy, that's why I got hung up.

And my apologies for the clumsy shorthand on 'police-issued DNA test'. I know it goes through an outside facility and it certainly isn't done in the 3 hours needed to twist up and make paranoid and scared a group of family members in an interrogation room. Whoops.

I'm so thankful you answered, we can take this to P Ms if you have any other advice. Thanks again :D

Glad to be of help! If you want to jack up the family paranoia over identity itself, some folks get very upset over the possibility that DNA testing might reveal family secrets ("non-parternity events") or contradict beliefs about their family origins.

Funny enough, the ADA in Jake's subsequent trial attempts to paint his family as degenerates with a 'who's the daddy' situation. He tries to say Jake's father and his stepbrothers' late mother had an affair that produced Matthew, Jake's second eldest stepbrother, because he bears a passing resemblance to Jake's two older brothers. It blows up in the ADA's face because Matty has made those jokes about himself before and all of the nieces and nephews gave their grandparents a huge family tree complete with a DNA work up for their anniversary and it conclusively showed that Matty was not the product of an affair.

This ADA NEEDED evidence planting, bribery, and tampering to get a conviction in this case. He still almost blew it.

But, to reiterate and keep this on topic, estrogen from hormone therapies necessary for the transition from male to female does NOT show up in a cheek swab or blood test for suspect testing, correct?

And to add in something that probably doesn't need to be said but I will anyway, Jake's twin sister Jessie is not into male drag. Once she transitioned, she is woman and woman is she. I'm saying this to head off any comment that she dressed as Jake to commit this murder. She'd die before she'd do that to her brother, wildly out of character.

It would be easy for her lose faith in him and have the entire family splinter. I think it's more of a challenge to show a family sticking together through something this stigmatizing and emotionally crushing.

Again, thank you for the assistance!

Labs only report results applicable to the tests ordered, so you can't have estrogen levels being reported from a vial sent out for blood typing. Swabbing for DNA only works because of amplification techniques designed for DNA. Swabbing for pathogens only works because the bacteria collected are then grown in a culture. In both cases, the result is a yes/no answer as to presence of what's being looked for.

Total estrogens requires a blood draw, in the correct tube. I don't see an ADA getting a court order for that. Since adult men normally have circulating estrogen, it's not going to prove anything.

Alrighty, DNA is out. There are other things tying Jake to the murder and I was always planning a chapter that went over the plan and execution from the conspirators/murderer's POV so the ADA will know how to suppress the question to avoid reasonable doubt, while still facilitating bribes and bobbling the case.

The ADA actually has a great track record when not playing second chair in a criminal conspiracy; he's running for state senate so he's trying to score a huge win before the election and fast track himself to State Attorney General and maybe Governor. It's his hubris getting him as well as never having gone so rogue before but he has a powerful man behind the curtain assisting him.

You've been such a huge help, thank you so much! Again, damn you University of Law and Order School of Law and Medicine! /shakes fist in the air

So, I have a number of LGBT characters in my various stories; some are main characters, others supporting or bit characters (though I try to write every character as if they could be Hero of Another Story). Anyway, while I try to write every character as a person and not simply a caricature (character creation is to me arguably the most fun part of the writing process), I still worry about Unfortunate Implications. With that in mind, I'm wondering about how certain portrayals might be interpreted. While I have other characters and stories I could talk about, for now I'm just looking for opinions on these two.

1) Keith is a Nice Guy Badass Biker (albeit a high school version) who, late in the second act of the story in which he is featured (there are Loads And Loads Of Characters) comes out as bi to his girlfriend Julia and later to her friends. He explicitly notes that while he finds certain men attractive (one of whom happens to be their friend Elizabeth's ex-boyfriend), he is still mainly attracted to women, by a ratio of about 3-1. He's only a supporting character in this story, but I worry that it will come off as But Not Too Bi. For what it's worth, there are several other gay characters in the story (most prominently a lesbian couple).

2) Carrie identifies as asexual, and while this is one of the first things we learn about her (upon running into her Jerkass prom date at their high school reunion), it's far from her only character trait. In addition to being the mastermind behind many heists (one of which is at the center of her story, where she's the MC), she's also an active surfer, a professional magician, and a math genius. A large part of her story consists of a developing romance between herself and one of her heist partners Justin, and close to the end of the story, this relationship is physically consummated. Even though Carrie does so mainly for Justin's sake, to show how much he means to her (she's asexual, not aromantic), my fear is that this will undermine her previously noted asexuality.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Well the act itself doesn't stop you from being Asexual. How it will come across to the audience is debatable. Also the way that you described her consummating for his sake can happen but I would tread carefully to make it seem non-coercive on his part. I'm not Bi so won't comment on that part.

Edited by phantom1 on Jul 1st 2019 at 7:33:27 AM

Keith is fine. But Not Too Bi is mostly meaningful in stories with are already scarce on representation. If "oh yeah, X totally would smooch up a dude, maybe, sometime, not on-screen" is the only thing then that's maybe an issue, but you're fine. IF you really want to insert confirmation, can have him and Julia sit down together and ogle some sexy dudes mags or something, just as a background element. It's not necessary, but it is just a cute scene on its own.

That's what I was about to suggest — I've been ninja'd

If not for this anchor I'd be dancing between the stars. At least I can try to write better vampire stories than Twilight.

How would you subtly imply a character is aro-ace without outright mentioning it? I've been brainstorming a story idea and I'd like to make the character an aro-ace trans guy. I got the subtly (or not-so-subtly trans?) parts fine but not the aro ones. They just come off as single.

Well, you could make him one half of a Chastity Couple with another aro/ace person, but I have absolutely no clue if doing so would be the subtle hint that you're looking for, so explore other options and suggestions.

I have reason to suspect that I might be mildly aromantic — I'm definitely not asexual — but I don't feel confident enough to declare myself as aromantic, so I'll summarize the reason I suspect it, in hopes that maybe something I say will inspire something similar to use as a hint for your character. I use dating as a means to get to know the other person for the purpose of finding out if that's the person I want to marry, and I find a very large category of romantic gestures to be Tastes Like Diabetes distractions from that goal.

Edited by Miss_Desperado on Jul 4th 2019 at 11:05:30 AM

If not for this anchor I'd be dancing between the stars. At least I can try to write better vampire stories than Twilight.

Let me give you an example: a savvy Villain wants to distract your character while their partner robs someone else. They have a 3rd partner who is distracting people (mostly any nearby cops) and they know your character is: a) looking at their mark and b) if not ACE, a No-Sell for flirting.

So they have partner #3 wearing a MAGA hat and making an ass of himself, tying up the cops and the rest of the crowd.

Villain approaches your character, a drop-dead gorgeous person who chats up your character and says: "Can you take my picture, I know my phone is kinda weird, but if you push this button then- aw, look at that, one of those people with their stupid hats. Damn shame! Please don't get that idiot in my picture. please?. The Villain keeps your characters hands and ears tied up with these antics, knowing that flirting won't work.

While partner #2 slides to the victim and commits the crime.

The allies of your character remember a buffoon in a MAGA had and this knockout chatting up your character - they have been taken out of the fight as it were.

Your character remembers this needy person asking for a favor who just wouldn't shut up, a buffoon in a MAGA hat and some nondescript person sliding past the victim. Perhaps dressed a little too generic.

People tend to notice attractiveness first. Your character remembers that the villain has eyes that are green with a brown tinge. The other character missed that because they noticed that the villain had a nice figure or a really nifty outfit that showed just the right amount of skin.

The nondescript person? The other character may talk about how the bodytype or face were "average" and "nothing to write home about" - your character may notice red sneakers with no logo (or the logo cut painted over). Just as the police find red sneakers in the trash near the villan's house.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

Any advice or resources for writing a bi man who's learning/realizing that he's bi over the course of one part of the story? Up until this point he's only been with women, and hadn't ever really considered or noticed that he had an attraction to other men.

Conversely, should I just forgo that and already have him be out so that I don't have to open that can of worms? A larger part of his surprise towards his attraction to the man that becomes his love interest in this case is that they come from opposing cultures, and he never thought he'd fall for someone like him.

"Can't make an omelette without breaking some children." -Bur

Weird, I just realized I have the inverse conundrum: how to portray a guy who previously assumed he was pansexual finding himself losing interest in most other guys as well as specific species of aliens.

Edited by Miss_Desperado on Jul 21st 2019 at 9:59:41 AM

If not for this anchor I'd be dancing between the stars. At least I can try to write better vampire stories than Twilight.

Heh.

So I finished my very first novel, The Cemetery Girl. I got few comments that the story does have some diversity and representation. The part that gets a lot of comment is in regards to LGBT aspect.

The main character, Paul Carson, is obsessed with his (male) roommate's body, while his sister is a lesbian and doesn't really try to hide it. Also, his eventual love interest is openly a bisxual. Lastly, the closest thing the story has to a villain is a completely heterosexual character.

...Which is super weird, because I wrote the first (and incomplete) draft of the story several years back, before I even had a concept of diversity and representation. So those choices are totally unintentional.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.