Follow TV Tropes

Following

The Islamophobia Thread

Go To

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1: Feb 20th 2015 at 4:59:11 AM

Islamophobia is a term for prejudice against, hatred towards, or fear of the religion of Islam, Muslims, or of ethnic groups perceived to be Muslim. The term entered into common English usage in 1997 with the publication of a report by the Runnymede Trust condemning negative emotions such as fear, hatred, and dread directed at Islam or Muslims. While the term is now widely recognized and used, both the term and the underlying concept have been criticized.

The causes and characteristics of Islamophobia are still debated. Some scholars have defined it as a type of racism. Some commentators have posited an increase in Islamophobia resulting from the September 11 attacks, while others have associated it with the increased presence of Muslims in secular nations.

This thread is about discussing Islamophobia, its manifestations in institutions, the media, public opinion, grass-roots movements for and against it, and, last but not least, hate crimes.

In the wake of the Charlie attacks, and the subsequent ones in Denmark, and the resulting rising wave of islamophobia, I think it's very important to discuss the topic in depth.

I would suggest reading the Other Wiki's article on the topic. It's a good starting point to study the phenomenon.

—-

Today I went to a conference on Islamophobia in Catalonia and Europe. I'll try to make a rough summary of the notes I took:

First off, they talked about the problem at an institutional level.

In their efforts against terrorism, the police and intelligence services have been doing something rather iffy: they've focused their prevention efforts on sleeper cells. That is to say, they arrested people who had done nothing, and had no weapons or explosives, but were suspected of this or that, because of their acquaintances and family relations, because of their sympathies. They were accused of talking in code. Like saying "I'm going to get married" for "I'm gonna go martyr myself"—which is a rather hilarious choice, come to think of it.

This is nothing new in terms of the government chasing after people with outlier ideologies. Just ask any counter-culture activists far left or right of centre. The conference speakers implied that much more effort was dedicated to go after (and publicize) people who killed on ideological grounds, than people who killed for money or business reasons, be it organized crime or unscrupulous corporations. As a caricaturist wrote: "Killing for religious motives is barbaric. What's civilized is killing for economic motives."

A common pattern nowadays is to sweep in through bars and restaurants in a whole neighborhood, demand ID documentation from everyone, arrest anyone who can't or won't produce it... and not without brutality. They will gratuitously employ extreme subduction protocols. A man died because six police piled up on him, allegedly to restraim him from hurting itself. The autopsy showed no self-harm wounds... and plenty of blows to the head. The judge dismissed all the evidence from the autopsy and all the testimonies as "unimportant", and the policemen were absolved and released. That struggle to get justice still going on, because the guy happened to have family and friends who cared, and they've managed to spark a campaign.

They went on to insist that it was easier to guarantee an effective police action if we focus on protecting citizens rather than on persecuting people for what they think.

Islamophobia would be an update of racism, following the same rationalization processes of sweeping generalization and stigmatization of an entire collective (one Muslim is a terrorist, all Muslims are terrorists). It would be a case of scapegoating, of distracting from the grave internal social and political problems by seeking a "whipping boy".

The problem starts with school segregation. For one thing, the dual system of public school and subsidized private schools means that immigrants kids get excluded from one system and shunted and concentrated into the other, which results in ghettos of sorts. There's also the matter of the lack of representation at school of Muslim history, customs, celebrations. They send the kids on school visits to churches, even synagogues, but never to mosques. Such as they are, that is; there's a great deal of institutional resistance to granting Muslims permits to erect proper temples, despite the fact that the law grants them equal rights to Christians in that regard, on paper. Hence, most communities get stuck having to pray inside dingy garages.

Kids should be taught about their neighbours; familiar children grow into tolerant and understanding adults. Ignorant children, or children who learn about Islam from the media... but we'll return to the media later.

There's a linguistic trap, a reticence to accept that Islam is "ours", that it is home-grown, not something foreign, not something weird, but something domestic and local.

The Royal Academy of the Spanish Language is the institution that is allegedly tasked with recording the words of the Spanish language as they are "effectively used". Their Dictionary of the Spanish language shows some interesting tendencies on their side. On the one hand, archaisms from the XVI-th century like "alfalá" or "mulsime" that no-one uses except scholars are still featured. On the other hand, an everyday, essential word like Sunni was only added in 2014, while Atatolá was added much earlier, in 1984 (and still shi'a is not featured). This reflects a tendency where we only seem to hear or care about Muslims when they're involved in something violent and flashy. The word "islamofobia" isn't featured. Apparently, it's not in effective use.

The next speaker was a journalist, and according to him, in general, the media tend to prevaricate and misrepresent: we get pundits who know very little but who are very bold in putting forth their opinions. Very few Muslims are ever invited, interviewed, or sought out as sources: it's always when there's an attack or a war of some sort, and they tend to ask religious authorities rather than simple citizens. Furthermore, there's plenty of experts on the topic of Islam, plenty of solid sources, but they don't bother to contact them in normal times, and so, when something happens, they know no-one, grab the first "expert" at hand, who might know even less than them!

He also suggested that there was too much of a tendency to pile on adjectives and labels, like "radical muslim", "jihadist", and so on. He suggests that blind, murderous terrorist strikes be simply labelled murders or killings, without attaching labels and adjectives to it, especially when the terrorists haven't made any clear claims, demands, assertions, grievances, when it isn't clear what the Hell they even want.

One thing that the media tend to forget is that Muslims are the first victims of Islamic terorism. That, the day of the Charlie attacks, hundreds were dying at the hands of ISIS and Boko Haram and others like them.

They don't treat Islam as a fact that is pertaining to their own country. They treat it like it was some kind of nationality. Like "Islamland" is a place somewhere where all these people belong, instead of here. People came from the world over to join this society. How about inviting them on the plateau from a stance of normality, on a normal day, to talk about their normal lives? How about asking a common citizen about their experience, instead of a religious official, every now and then? How about acknowledging and owning the current plurality of the culture?

There's a movement throughout Europe that Spain is beginning to join: this "European Patriotism" against "the Islamisation of Europe".

This is about status, about marking a distance between "true Europeans" and "the Other", between "Natives" and "Newcomers". Like racism, it is a distinction mechanism.

Islamophobia functions as an "acceptable racism".

What about these Muslims, then? Some of them have been living here for forty years, and haven't abandoned their faiths. Thus we move from threat to suspicion. Thoughts of a "Fifth Column" and "Double Allegiance" float around. And every time there's some incident, it feels like Groundhog Day. In Abuse of Evil: The Corruption of Politics and Religion since 9/11 (Themes for the 21st Century Ser.), Richard J. Bernstein studies this deformation of thought where nuance becomes conflated with weakness and indecision.

Another speaker brought up the interesting case of the headscarf. Muslim girls who choose to wear their faith out in public are excluded from schools, women get looked down upon, randomly interrogated about their beliefs in public areas, even insulted. That crap doesn't happen to, say, males wearing a djellaba, because it's easier to bully a woman, apparently. The popular assumption is that they are willing victims, accomplices and enablers of the evil males. Which is rather insulting, really.

An interesting observation is that there's very little research on the role of immigrant mothers; they are made invisible, even though they play a major role, at home, with the children. The kids see the news, they get asked stuff (told stuff) at school, and they come home and ask their moms "Islamic? Terrorism? Mom, what's up with this and that?" And the moms have to answer. The speaker concluded: "My daughter told me, 'What that pundit on TV's saying, that's all wrong, that's slander, why isn't anyone talking back to her?' and I answered "Well, daughter of mine, how about you study very hard, make yourself a woman of culture and standing, and then one day go on that plateau and tell them what the truth is?"

[/conference]

—-

An interesting thing I found, from October 2012: The Growing Christian Movement Pushing Back Against Islamophobia. It's interesting that Christians struggle against their stigmatization as identical to the Vocal Minority of intolerant asses, by taking a stand against that minority's stigmatization of Muslims by the same mechanism. The tolerant are better off standing shoulder-to-shoulder.

If you google "against Islamophobia", you'll find a bunch of interesting results.

Meanwhile, in the UK, British Muslim school children suffer a backlash of abuse following Paris attacks.

And, in the USA, An Islamic centre that had one of its buildings burned down in a suspected arson attack, to which some people felt compelled to literally add insult to injury by way of hateful comments on Facebook. The recipients handled it rather gracefully.

edited 20th Feb '15 5:39:28 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#2: Feb 20th 2015 at 6:53:30 AM

Remember: this is a thread for discussion about islamophobia. It's not a thread for bashing Islam. It's not about oppression olympics, either. If you're going to post that "Islam is worse than other religions or ideologies because Muslims do x" I'm going to have quite a low threshold to Thump it as a derail waiting to happen. Anyone can use their Google-fu to find various religious and ideological fanatic groups doing just about anything that Islamic extremists have been doing recently, so let's not pretend that Islam is a unique threat or anything like that.

That doesn't mean we can't talk about the reasons why people are afraid of Islam or resent it, but let's be mature enough to know and accept that not all varieties of Islam are the same, and not all Muslims endorse the things islamophobes claim to fear. Let's not make it black-and-white.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#3: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:49:59 AM

[up] Okay, though can we mention countries that allow Ramadan, and those that don't?

Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
#4: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:55:47 AM

How can a country "not allow" Ramadan? As I understand it, observing Ramadan is a personal thing — are there countries where it's mandatory to eat during the daylight hours?

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#5: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:59:13 AM

In Britain Ramadan is banned and Muslims live in fear of the Ramadan Police, who go door-to-door searching for fasting Muslims and force them to eat tea and crumpets and then laugh villainously.

edited 20th Feb '15 7:59:43 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#6: Feb 20th 2015 at 8:11:38 AM

This is actually a thing: China bans Ramadan: Fasting and ‘taking part in religious activities’ forbidden in controversial crackdown on minority Uighur Muslims

I'm just as surprised as you are. How do they even enforce that?

“Students shall not participate in religious activities; they shall not study scripts or read poems at script and choir classes; they shall not wear any religious emblems; and no parent or others can force students to have religious beliefs or partake in religious activities.”

The ruling party is wary of religious activities it worries might serve as a rallying point for opposition to one-party rule. Controls on worship are especially sensitive in Xinjiang and in neighboring Tibet, where religious faith plays a large role in local cultures.

The ruling party says religion and education should be kept separate and students should not be subject to religious influences. That rule is rarely enforced for children of Han Chinese, who, if they have a religion, are mostly Buddhist, Daoist or Christian.

Double Standard again, huh. They took the French example and ran with it?

[up]You just gave me flashbacks to stories I read about the Marxists who were disappeared into prisons in some Arab countries in the Seventies and Eighties. They would attempt to go on hunger strikes. They would be force-fed scalding tea with lots of sugar in it. Forgive me if I don't laugh.

edited 20th Feb '15 8:14:04 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#7: Feb 20th 2015 at 8:22:43 AM

Yeah, and your reference to tea-based torture gives me flashbacks to December 16th 1773. And also to when my platoon was wiped out by the VC at Khe Sanh. You can't have flashbacks if you weren't there, Handle. tongue

Re: China

Seems far more stringent than the French law. It will backfire nastily on them though; authoritarianism is like kryptonite to multinational and multicultural states.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#8: Feb 20th 2015 at 8:34:45 AM

-knock knock- Hello there, are you hungry?

Man, so few muslims in my country that I bet all islamophobia is made basically out of simple indifference and ignorance. Not to mention a very common curse word is "A la puta" (Literal translation "to the whore", figurative "Oh fucking dammit!"), which sounds a lot like how "allah" is pronounced!

What little I know here is that there is only one mosque, and it is sunni.

edited 20th Feb '15 8:35:27 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#9: Feb 20th 2015 at 8:37:00 AM

It's always sunni in Costa Rica, you're in the Caribbean.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#10: Feb 20th 2015 at 8:54:47 AM

[lol][up][awesome]

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#11: Feb 20th 2015 at 8:57:57 AM

[up][up] You Shi'ite.

Keep Rolling On
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
#12: Feb 20th 2015 at 8:59:16 AM

OTC, folks.... It doesn't have to be deadly serious, but let's not derail into being silly within the first page.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#13: Feb 20th 2015 at 9:15:12 AM

You can't have flashbacks if you weren't there, Handle.

No, and I'm thankful for that. It's depressing enough when it's just vicarious, second-hand memories.

My uncle, he was actually there.

He won't talk about it.

Anyway, that has nothing to do with islamophobia. Let's stay on topic.

[[http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/2/law-alone-cant-dismantle-islamophobia.html Law alone can’t dismantle Islamophobia, we must also tackle the policies, media narratives and political rhetoric that perpetuate a climate of fear]]. The piece is very tight, so I had a hard time selecting any specific bit to quote. This is just the "problem stating";

Since 9/11, the U.S. government has implemented policies that target members of these communities, reinforcing the notion that they are worthy of suspicion. George W. Bush’s administration, for example, required people from South Asian and Middle Eastern countries to register with immigration authorities, detaining and deporting nearly 13,000 of them. Under President Barack Obama, the Federal Bureau of Investigation continues to engage in pointed surveillance of and information gathering in Muslim communities, as do local authorities such as the New York Police Department. Recently, the DOJ released guidance barring profiling by federal law enforcement but carved out exceptions in cases of national security and racial mapping, which allows authorities to gather information about particular communities for intelligence purposes. And just this week, the White House convened a national summit to discuss programs to counter violent extremism in the U.S. Instead of addressing all forms of violent extremism — including the threat from, say, white supremacist groups — the summit and programs’ framework broadly focused on Muslim radicalization, reinforcing the narrative that American Muslims are inherently suspect.

The media, public and political figures and a growing Islamophobia industry buoy this climate of suspicion. In January one organization placed anti-Muslim ads on Muni buses in San Francisco. Vanderbilt University law professor Carol Swain’s op-ed in The Tennessean stirred outrage among students on campus when she asked, “What horrendous attack would finally convince us that Islam is not like other religions in the United States, that it poses an absolute danger to us and our children unless it is monitored better than it has been under the Obama administration?” Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal recently made comments about “no-go zones” in Europe that are purportedly under Muslim control. And in Texas, protesters shouted, “Go home! ISIS will gladly take you!” at a group of Muslims visiting the state Capitol to meet with their legislators.

Legal efforts will be only partly effective if we do not confront the culture that allows hate violence to chafe and fester. All these incidents occurred in the two months leading up to the Chapel Hill shootings. The cumulative effect is overwhelming. In the week after the tragedy, communities around the country have reported other acts of violence and vandalism. Someone spray-painted racial slurs such as “pigs” and “Now this is a hate crime” on the doors of the Islamic School of Rhode Island. In Dearborn, Michigan, police are investigating two white men’s assault of an Arab man who was with his daughter in the parking lot of a Kroger grocery store. In Bothell, Washington, leaders of a Hindu temple found a swastika and “Get out” spray-painted on a wall, and a nearby junior high school was vandalized with “Muslims get out.”

It goes on to propose a series of sensible-sounding solutions and measures to stop hate violence, both in terms of better systems of protection on the institutional side, and in terms of bridge-building between communities. Very nice piece.

It will backfire nastily on them though; authoritarianism is like kryptonite to multinational and multicultural states.

China spent decades having the only theatre/opera/ballet work allowed be The Red Detachment of Women. Most old Chinese can recite it by heart, or so I heard.

edited 20th Feb '15 9:17:56 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DeMarquis Since: Feb, 2010
#14: Feb 20th 2015 at 9:46:51 AM

In 2012, a group of Muslums in New Jersey sued the New York City Police Department over a surveillance program that targeted mosques and muslums on the basis of religion. In February, they lost the case. The presiding judge ruled that "he was not convinced that the plaintiffs were targeted solely because of their religion. "The more likely explanation for the surveillance was to locate budding terrorist conspiracies," Note that he didnt say ongoing terrorist conspiracies, but just "budding" ones (whatever those are). The plaintifs have not given up, and have appealed to a US Federal Appeals Court.

I actually used this case as a minor plot point in a novel I'm writing.

edited 20th Feb '15 9:47:35 AM by DeMarquis

Elfive Since: May, 2009
#15: Feb 20th 2015 at 1:00:21 PM

I can't help but wonder how much this actually plays into terrorist hands.

I mean, by generating an atmosphere of distrust between Muslim communities and their neighbours you will likely see an increase in the number impressionable youths being convinced to join the cause.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#16: Feb 20th 2015 at 1:43:04 PM

Indeed, unfair, severe, over-generalized crackdowns on the community the attackers are associated with are one of the mid-goals of terrorism; when you make the innocent pay along with the guilty, you don't generate resentment towards the guilty, but towards yourself. This alienation of the collective they're associated with helps the terrorists rally more people to their cause.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#17: Feb 20th 2015 at 3:13:26 PM

Does Islamophobia increase when countries have economic problems that affect the population severely or is it just a case of severe secularism in other countries?

Oddly enough, Portugal is one of the European countries with the least amount of Islamophobia, in spite of the post-austerity climate. I don't have any statistics, though I do have a special report with common citizens who adopted different forms of Islam and are quite peaceful (It's in Portuguese, though, so, I don't know if Google/Bing translators would work efficiently).

edited 20th Feb '15 3:14:31 PM by Quag15

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#18: Feb 20th 2015 at 5:59:22 PM

If I had to throw a wild guess at it I'd say because Portugal has a stronger historical link with Muslim populations due its geographic locations? You know the whole Moors history in that corner of Europe. Though by that logic Spain would also have cordial relationship with Islam, and I don't know if it does.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#19: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:25:39 PM

[up] It's not exactly wild. That's my other guess as well, though Spain had the Madrid bombings in 2004.

We're probably not of relevant anyway.

edited 20th Feb '15 7:27:05 PM by Quag15

Beholderess from Moscow Since: Jun, 2010
#20: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:55:31 PM

Not to play blaming the victim here, since I do not think it is precisely their fault - the media portrayal and ignoring such initiatives is very powerful - but, as been mentioned in a different thread, stronger denouncement of terrorism from the Muslim communities would have been a good thing. I remember, in the wake of some terrorist attack in Russia several years ago, how the head Muslim officials in the area where it happened cursed the perpentators and called upon the young Muslim men to be vigilant, to protect their brothers of other religions and to be on lookout for the criminals. That was a powerful image, I think.

As for the veiled women - it is honestly a difficult question. While it is true that some women consent to it, what a person consents to largely depends on culture and upbringing, and can still be oppressive. Not saying that all such instances are oppressive, only that a lot of them are and we have no way of telling which is which.

Irrelevant and Offtopic content deleted. Madrugada

edited 20th Feb '15 8:22:58 PM by Madrugada

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#21: Feb 20th 2015 at 8:04:51 PM
Thumped: This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping. Stay on topic, please.
Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
#22: Feb 20th 2015 at 8:21:07 PM

This is not a "General Talk about Religion" thread.

Do NOT try to make it one.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Beholderess from Moscow Since: Jun, 2010
#23: Feb 20th 2015 at 9:10:48 PM

All I've meant by bringing comparison with other religions as to point out that it is not an issue specific to Islam and I am not singling Islamic insitutions out or holdng them to different standard. The question of to which extent being willing to submit to some practices (while being brought up in such a way that makes them the only real choice or that makes other choices have negative consequences such as being oscracised from the community) makes them acceptable still stands.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
murazrai Since: Jan, 2010
#24: Feb 21st 2015 at 1:48:27 AM

Another facet of Islamophobia is that people are unwilling to learn what Islam is outside of non-Islamic sources and worse, actively preventing others to do so, at least in Malaysia. My parents even called religious talks by local religious teachers that I watched in YouTube a form of brainwashing. Even the supposed moderate interfaith groups are not immune to it.

edited 21st Feb '15 1:49:27 AM by murazrai

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#25: Feb 21st 2015 at 1:55:03 AM

[up]While some of the sermon contents by the more "infamous" Malaysian Islamic preachers could be considered brainwashing, I'd consider your parents' reaction to be an uniquely Malaysian hybrid of Islamophobia and racism.

Of course, Malaysian society as a whole has a phobia of whatever isn't the religion of the phobia sufferer in question, but that falls outside the topic of this thread.

And as to the free Korans, I'd just remind myself of Ridhuan Tee/the Moral police here as to why I was and am disillusioned with organized religion.

edited 21st Feb '15 1:56:44 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot

Total posts: 2,427
Top