Five-Man Band cleanup

Well we could mention that this trope was Discredited (because at this point and with your strict criteria, it might as well be).

Yeah, the reason there aren't really any recent examples is because people have broadened the formula. That doesn't mean the original version isn't a trope.

I can understand the appeal of making it Just for Fun to a certain degree - as I've said before, there seems to be a rather baffling desire among tropers to want groups of characters to fit FMB that goes beyond just how rigidly defined it is - but I definitely don't think it would be a good idea.

Yeah, that.

It's misuse is probably because the page once made it sound's like it's The Ideal Ensemble Team ™, well, it technically is, since it takes very little effort to create one (make The Leader, make two pairs Foil characters, one's a jerk and nice duo, one smart and strong.) and the roles make it very easy to make Plot Tailored to the Party. It's also because there is no Ridiculously Similar Trope for similarly built teams.

The "Associated Character Tropes" section there also probably contributes to that.

edited 23rd Jan '14 9:39:12 PM by ShanghaiSlave

What's wrong with Just for Fun? Seems like a pretty cool idea to me

The fact that a) it's pointless, b) it breaks the trope and c) should be discussed in TRS.

For one, we ARE in TRS right now. :P

For two, that's also what happened to Super Weight.

Super Weight wasn't a trope at all, though.

And this is not TRS.

I see.

Then yeah, I might sound crazy but... I'm gonna turn this into a not-trope. *warps to TRS*

Please don't. I don't think there's been one vote of support yet, and it's so hard to get any TRS thread started that something like this is just going to be a waste of valuable space.

With advice, I whacked the Five-Man Band examples on Transformers: The Movie as they were missing key members.

@584 DAN 004

Wow, so much beef... FMB is a Discredited Trope that was once-upon-a-time, in the age of Smurfette Principle and Strictly Formula casting, was a definite trope. You can't just "un-trope" it, especially since it has long been established to be one.

Metroid Prime has this abomination:

• Five-Man Band: The Hunters of Hunters:
  • The Hero: Sylux
  • The Lancer: Trace
  • The Big Guy: Spire
  • The Smart Guy: Kanden/Weavel
  • The Chick: Noxus, by process of elimination
  • The Sixth Ranger: Samus
    • Four Man Band: The Bounty Hunters called in at the beginning of Corruption, with the Galactic Federation working as the Big Good/Mission Control.
  • The Hero: Samus
  • The Lancer: Rundas
  • The Big Smart Guy: Ghor (the latter by default; he gains a bit of a frenzied blood lust while in his suit)
  • The Chick: Gandrayda

The first one is not an example, because the hunters are all competing with each other; at one point, you see Trace fight Noxus. I also question the two smart guy entries, since one is a genetically engineered super soldier, the other is a cyborg, and neither are noted to have more than average intelligence.

The second one isn't an example, either; ignoring the fact that one character fills two roles^note That's actually not too big of a problem, as Aurora Unit 242 could probably fill the smart guy role, Gandrayda is not a mediator at all. In fact, the very first thing she does on-screen involves trying to provoke Samus.

I'm leaning toward killing both of them. Opinions?

Seems like blatant shoehorning. Kill.

"by process of elimination" and "by default" means it didn't fit as far as the troper knew so ax it.

I just took out both Four-Man Band and Five-Man Band examples from Ghostbusters due to blatant shoehorning.

Could I get some feedback before requesting all these terrible X-Men examples be cut?

X-Men (Blue Team)

• The Leader Cyclops
• The Lancer Gambit
• The Big Girl Rogue
• The Heart Wolverine
• The Chick Psylocke
• Kid-Appeal Character Jubilee

X-Men (Gold Team)

• The Leader Storm
• The Lancer Archangel
• The Big Guy Colossus
• The Smart Guy Iceman
• The Chick Jean Grey

New X-Men (Grant Morrison run)

• The Leader Cyclops
• The Lancer Jean Grey
• The Big Guy Wolverine
• The Smart Guy Beast
• The Chick Emma Frost
• Sixth Ranger Xorn
• Tagalong Kid Beak

Astonishing X-Men

• The Leader Cyclops
• The Lancer Emma Frost
• The Big Guy Wolverine
• The Smart Guy Beast
• The Chick Kitty Pryde
• Sixth Ranger Colossus
• Tagalong Kid Armor

X-Factor

• Big Good Valerie Cooper
• The Leader Havok
• The Lancer Polaris
• The Smart Guy Quicksilver
• The Big Guy Strong Guy
• The Chick Wolfsbane
• The Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Ranger Multiple Man

X-Force

• The Leader Wolverine
• The Lancer Archangel
• The Smart Guy X-23
• The Big Guy Warpath
• The Chick Wolfsbane and later Elixir
• Sixth Ranger Domino

X-Statix

• The Leader The Orphan/Mr. Sensitive, Zeitgeist (originally)
• The Lancer The Anarchist (was actually even designed to look like the lone wolf with an attitude problem; Dead Girl is the friendlier variant)
• The Big Guy Phat
• The Smart Guy Vivisector (For a guy whose mutation basically makes him a werewolf, he's still mostly useful to the team in an intellectual capacity)
• The Chick U-Go Girl and Venus Dee Milo
• Sixth Ranger El Guapo
• Sixth Ranger Traitor The Spike (originally a secondary Big Guy and the best melee fighter in the group, he betrayed the team several times in his desire to become the leader)
• Team Pet Doop (It's not exactly clear what he is, precisely, but what is known is that he can go toe-to-toe with Thor and speaks his own language (with its own unique alphabet) and looks like a flying potato with arms.)

Ultimate X-Men

• The Leader Cyclops
• The Lancer Wolverine
• The Smart Guy Beast
• The Big Guy Colossus, sometimes Storm
• The Chick Jean (but not useless)
• The Mentor Xavier
• Tagalong Kid Iceman

Almost none of these are 5-man teams. The only one that is has Iceman in The Smart Guy role and that feels like shoehorning to me. Plus Beast is both smart and a huge bruiser, so I don't think he can fit into any FMB set-up very well at all. I would say move em all to The Team or whatever, except they are ZCE and I do not want to do a write up for all of them. I think they ought to be deleted.

edited 4th Feb '14 10:09:57 AM by rexpensive

Agreed to move or delete them all as you said. They're either too big, use non-standard archetypes, and shoehorn people. I laughed when I saw Wolverine listed as "The Heart".

I had an example I wanted to add but, not knowing about this thread, asked about it in the main Locked Pages Edit Request board. I was directed to this thread and, upon reading the header post, realized my example didn't fit. But that got me thinking about why there are so many examples that are "not quite" a Five-Man Band. Like what if you have a group of five that belong to different role tropes or have separate stories, or where two share roles (as in my example)? Should those belong here too, where should they go instead, or is such a team Not A Trope? And what about groups of three or four people that fit some of the roles or straddle them but aren't a subtrope of Power Trio? Yes, we already have Power Trio for the former, but no examples in the main trope. Should examples that don't fit any of the subtropes be allowed in the general trope? Should that still be restricted, and if so to what extent? And what about for the latter? For four all we have is Four-Man Band and that's strictly a ComedyTrope, and Four-Temperament Ensemble and that can also fit a fifth member but doesn't apply everywhere, and even one of those may fit four of the roles in a Five-Man Band. What should we call that? And what about groups of six or seven, five of which fit the Five-Man Band roles? They may not be The Magnificent Seven Samurai, and I don't think we even have a trope for six.

Also, I was perusing the list of FiveBadBands, and found quite a few pretty egregious violations of the rules for a Five-Man Band, among them some bands of three, four, six or seven, groups of BigBads that never met, and groups where (usually) The Dark Chick was not really an example. I checked the main page and they looked pretty strict as to what was and was not a Five Bad Band. Then I realized that some of the examples I had just added were such violations. Should we place Five Bad Band under a similar lockdown to what we have for Five-Man Band?

Regarding the groups of 6, some of them are allowed, but only if the Sixth member wasn't in the group initially (hence, Sixth Ranger)

And the Sixth Ranger isn't part of the Five-Man Band writeup, it's just that it's a place for that extra person to go that still matches the formula. They cannot have been part of the team from the beginning, as noted.

Under anime,

• the bands in Fairy Tail are not examples: for one, the second band isn't a permanent team. for another, there are too many shared roles in the 1st band.
• Get Backers seem questionable too. Ginji and Ban permanent? doesn't that make it the inverse of Three Plus Two?
• Highschool Of The Dead — not "five" to begin with. there are seven members there. they fight as a team, but not in a way a FMB does.
• Katekyo Hitman Reborn!— That's a lot. Isn't there a permanent members only requirement? also, seemed to have been shoehorned solely because of the roles, and there really isn't a band dynamic among them.
• Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch — too many. pretty sure there was an actual band in the anime, and the rest of the members are shoehorning.
• the first band of D Gray Man is hardly 5. they are a group of seven and don't actually fit the dynamic.
• Pani Poni Dash!: the number of members make it questionable. plus, since when did The Generic Guy became part of the team?
• Samurai Deeper Kyo: the second team. subverted... really? is that even possible?
• Yu-Gi-Oh!: several non-members included, otherwise counts.

@594 — I agree there are several missing tropes for those. though they currently go to The Team if i'm not mistaken.

I was looking through the discussion for real, and I agreed with whoever said that this trope (as currently and very stringently defined) is a Discredited Trope. Then I looked up the YKTTW for Two Pairs of Foils and a Mediator and I realized that that trope could easily supplant this one. I agreed with those there who said that that trope should start with bad examples of this one. Too bad the discussion has been dead for over four months. Let's liven it back up.

edited 25th Feb '14 6:05:08 PM by THEBATHEAD

That's true and I believe that was the point back when it started up.

As for all the "note quite" examples of three or seven or different tropes etc, we have The Team. It's much more flexible but there is still a hardline rule; the people in question have to be a genuine team and not just an ensemble.

Pulled this from Final Fantasy Tactics

• Five-Man Band
  • The Hero - Ramza
  • The Lancer - Agrias
  • The Smart Guy - Mustadio
  • The Big Guy - Cid
  • The Chick - Alma & Rapha
  • The Sixth Ranger - Meliadoul & Marach
  • Team Pet - Boco

Also found this on Final Fantasy XII, it's close enough that I didn't outright pull it but it's still got two characters listed as The Big Guy and seems kind of shoehorn-y

• Five-Man Band: The party.
  • The Hero: Ashe, a rather anti-heroic one on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge.
  • The Lancer/The Face: Vaan, who serves as Ashe's Foil and confidant as well as the only one who interacts with the nigh hundreds of NP Cs.
  • The Smart Guy: Balthier, who provides exposition, game plans and smartass comments
  • The Big Guy: Basch and Fran, who rarely speak and are the most experienced combatants in the party.
  • The Chick: Penelo, who is typically first to aid an ailing party member and dispense down to earth wisdom.