Note: If a newly launched trope was already given a No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only designation while it was being drafted on the Trope Launch Pad, additions to the proper index do not need to go through this thread. Instead, simply ask the mods to add the trope via this thread
.
This is the thread to report tropes with problematic Real Life sections.
Common problems include:
- Conversation on the Main Page
- Flame Bait
- Squicky content
- Impossible in Real Life
Real Life sections on the wiki are kept as long as they don't become a problem. If you find an article with such problems, report it here. Please note that the purpose of this thread is to clean up and maintain real life sections, not raze them. Cutting should be treated as a last resort, so please only suggest cutting RL sections or a subset thereof you think the examples in question are completely unsalvageable.
If historical RL examples are not causing any problems, consider whether it would be better to propose a No Recent Examples, Please! (via this forum thread) for RL instead of NRLEP. If RL examples are causing problems only for certain subjects, consider whether a Limited Real Life Examples Only restriction would be preferable to NRLEP.
If you think a trope should be No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only, then this thread is the place to discuss it. However, please check Keep Real Life Examples first to see if it has already been brought up in the past. If not, state the reasons and add it to the crowner.
Before adding to the crowner:
- The trope should be proposed in the thread, along with reasons for why a crowner is necessary instead of a cleanup.
- There must be support from others in thread.
- Any objections should be addressed.
- Allow a minimum of 24 hours for discussion.
When adding to the crowner:
- Be sure to add the trope name, a link to where the discussion started, the reasons for crownering, whether the restriction being proposed is NRLEP or LRLEO (and in the latter case, which subject(s) the restriction would be for), and the date added.
- Announce in thread that you are adding the item.
- An ATT advert should be made as well (batch items together if more than one trope goes up in a day).
In order for a crowner to pass:
- Must have been up for a minimum of a week
- There must be a 2:1 ratio
- If the vote is exactly 2:1 or +/- 1 vote from that, give it a couple extra days to see if any more votes come in
- Once passed, tropes must be indexed on the appropriate NRLEP index
- Should the vote fail, the trope should be indexed on KRLE page
Sex Tropes, Rape and Sexual Harassment Tropes, and Morality Tropes are banned from having RL sections so tropes under those indexes don't need crowner vote.
Crowner entries that have already been called will have "(CLOSED)" appended to them — and are no longer open for discussion.
After bringing up a trope for discussion, please wait at least a day for feedback before adding it to the crowner.
NRLEP tag:
%%https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13350380440A15238800
LRLEO tag:
%%The following restrictions apply: [list restriction(s) here]
%%https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13350380440A15238800
Notes:
- This thread is not for general discussion regarding policies for Real Life sections or crowners. Please take those conversations to this Wiki Talk thread.
- Do not try to overturn previous No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only decisions without a convincing argument.
- As mentioned here, the consensus is that NRLEP warnings in trope page descriptions can use bold text so that they stand out.
- The [[noreallife]] tag doesn't currently work. This is a deprecated tag that was introduced many years ago — originally, it would have displayed a NRLEP warning banner when you edited the page. However, there's been some staff conversation (Feb 2024) about what a new technical solution might look like, so we'd advise against deleting these from pages, at least until we have a decision as to whether it'll be fixed or replaced.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 8th 2024 at 10:49:13 AM
Lost in Space
Okay, yes. Applying narrative and characterization tropes to real people is the slippery slope.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
No-lifer
Days ago, I added Insufferable Imbecile to the index because the page was launched with a NRLEP notice, but it was forgotten to be added until I saw. Does that still count as an arbitrary addition?
Limpin' with the bizkit.
Blapper of Water
Should Arch-Enemy be added to the crowner? It's a characterization trope, and the description focuses pretty heavily on villains despite a sentence about the enemy not necessarily being evil. The RL sections seem to be documenting nothing more than drama and historical contempt some people had for each other. Also there are two RL sections, but for what reason I can't say. One is for individuals and another is for institutions and countries and such.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
...
Doesn't Character Tic's real life section count as troping real people?
Short-Term Projects herald
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yes and yes.
The Arch-Douchebag
Hey, I'm here to start a discussion regarding religion. I bet it's gonna be really civil and productive.
Seriously though, I want to talk about the Fair for Its Day trope. Most of the examples, including Real Life, don't seem too stretched, though I am sure someone more knowledgeable than me could poke some holes in them. The "Religion" folder, however, is a pile of flaming garbage. It is a clear effect of multiple people rushing to defend their chosen religion from criticism by pointing out how progressive it is, even when they lack any evidence to support their claims or when their evidence is blatantly false. To provide a few examples of what I'm talking about:
According to this troper, a husband dying to protect his wife was unheard of in antiquity. Is that really true? I'm pretty sure love and protection were valued even then. Also, the way the example is wirtten is very preachy and holier-than-thou, which is a common theme with these examples.
This troper makes a claim that every nation on the face of the planet approved of gang rape and didn' have any laws regulating the tretment of war captives. They claim that, by the time the verse was written, Israel was literally the best nation on the planet in that regard, which is technically possible — though since Persians outright banned slavery at one point, it seems very unlikely — but there is no evidence to support it. Also, the final remark praising the slave masters (it's more accurate than calling them husbands) for their apparent concern for their slaves' hygiene is not only unfounded — since we have no reason to think the authors knew, let alone were concerned about the spreading of diseases — but also a little disturbing.
Does anyone have any evidence that New Testament, or Christians as a whole, were less racist than the rest of their society? Roman Empire was a multi-racial society, in which racism might have been present, but hardly institutionalized. I have no problem with claiming that Bible is against racial supremacy, but for it to be Fair for Its Day we need to know that racial supremacy was a thing in the first place.
Code of Hammurabi was written around 1754 BC. The eldest parts of the Bible were written in the eight century Before Christ. There is over a millenium separating them. By claiming that the two of them are "contemporaneous" the troper is either horribly misinformed or intentionally spreading misinformation.
This troper is trying to make the Bible authors into forensic experts based on a rather huge leap of logic. "Well, this rule could had been designed for that reason, even though that reason is never mentioned anywhere." Nothing but speculation and the adjacent entries are only a little better.
And now it's time for the icing on the cake:
This has absolutely nothing to do with the trope, or even religion for that matter. It is just an attempt to paint killing gay people in a sympathetic light by pretending as though they are the sole source of STD epidemics. I know we aren't particularly harsh about this sort of stuff, but am I the only one bothered by excusing the murder of gay people? If so, can I add my own example, in which I excuse the killing of Jews or Blacks? It wouldn't be any more deplorable in my books.
Also, the flder is full of indentation issues, Justifying Edits and faulty writing in general. Can we please do something about that mess? I would gladly remove everything outright and ban adding further entries, but there is a couple examples that can be seen as justified.
Edited by Tharkun140 on Jun 14th 2019 at 4:52:09 PM
Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.
Okay, I gave you the benefit of the doubt in the last thread, but you're sounding like someone who has an agenda here.
The only problems with the examples you cited (beyond the inevitable made-up crap that goes in every Real Life folder) are editors overusing hyperbole (which is actually a problem here) and Small Reference Pools.
In addition:
First quoteblock is from the thread linked above, second is from the last post.
Please do not deliberately make edits in bad faith to "prove a point" about something you don't like about a page. They will be reverted before you can say "Flame Bait."
Lost in Space
The above notwithstanding, my concern is that Fair for Its Day is going to be an inevitable landmine of flamebait any time it brings in religion — well, real life in general, but religion in particular.
Edited by Fighteer on Jun 14th 2019 at 11:14:50 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The Arch-Douchebag
Yeah, I have an agenda to remove misinformation and murder apologetics. Do you wish to oppose it?
So, the only things wrong with these examples is that they are factually incorrect? I'm glad we agree.
And don't worry, I know not to fight fire with fire. Cannot beat lies with more lies. I just want to know if those things would be okay, so that I can then judge whether the examples I cited are alright as well.
If you ask me, the whole Fair for Its Day trope may as well be scrambled, since it inspires discussions that concern not just the work in question but the entire cultural context — the kind of which can never be truly resolved. But failing that, I wish to at least keep it free of blatant lies/errors and justifications of murder.
Edited by Tharkun140 on Jun 14th 2019 at 5:36:56 PM
Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.
Short-Term Projects herald
Given the controversy this allows, I'd say NRLEP Fair for Its Day too.
Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
The Arch-Douchebag
As I said, I don't have that much problem with the Real Life section. But if that means that fake excuses for killing gay people get thrown out as well, I am all for making the trope NRLEP.
Blapper of Water
I added Arch-Enemy to the crowner.
RE Fair for Its Day: I'm not totally sure why this is YMMV. It's trying to document objective facts about works and their respective contexts. Like, where's the opinion or emotional judgment, isn't this technically "comparative [literature]" or something. I'm tempted to suggest making it IUEO but that would require removing it from YMMV. It was added to the YMMV index on January 1, 2012, without an edit reason. (I don't have time to dig into the archives right now, but there might be some discussion around that time period. It was added by ~Mag Bas, though I doubt they recall why as it was so long ago.)
C'mon, we don't need to imply people who disagree with us are in favor of "murder apologetics" or spreading misinformation. That's not helpful.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
Lost in Space
Agreed. Let's not throw around accusations without proof.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The Fridge Horror Literature page recently had some real-life examples added, linking to real-life crime and speculating on what a fictional premise means for our universe, sometimes with the multiverse theory. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=FridgeHorror.Literature
Edited by lalalei2001 on Jun 14th 2019 at 10:42:23 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
What multiverse theory? Not a real one right?
Edited by Lymantria on Jun 14th 2019 at 2:56:25 PM
Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
The Arch-Douchebag
Yeah, but there is no objective way to tell what is "Fair". We might judge something as progressive semi-objectively, but being progressive doesn't necessarily equal being good — at least not in the eyes of everyone.
I don't know if they are "in favor" of spreading misinformation, but they are spreading misinformation. The Bible and the Code of Hammurabi are not contemporaneous. The person who wrote this may have beared no ill will and just had an incorrect perception of history, but that's still an incorrect perception of history, used to argue a point.
As for the murder apologetics thing... alright, I made some assumptions. It is possible that the person who wrote that example wanted to only justify castration or other, less severe forms of oppressing homosexuals. But regardless of their intentions, they still wrote something that has nothing to do with the trope and only serves to push an agenda using a made-up scenario. The fact that I absolutely abhor this agenda doesn't make this any less true.
Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.
No-lifer
Is Fair for Its Day another innocuous (read: not controversial in nature) item that is likely to be made NRLEP because it attracts controversial examples, like Armor-Piercing Question?
Edited by FridgeGuy2016 on Jun 14th 2019 at 5:51:57 AM
Limpin' with the bizkit.
Did we get input on "The Reason You Suck" Speech? I think that should be NRELP too.
The Protomen enhanced my life.
The Arch-Douchebag
So... I guess we are just keeping all this made up crap I mentioned?
Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=TheReasonYouSuckSpeech.RealLife It's getting really bad. New Media is too.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
No-lifer
Almost all of the Real Life examples violated the ROCEJ. So they had to be deleted and banned.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
What were they like?
Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
he/him | Image Pickin' regular
I'm with Tharkun140 on the religion folder of Fair for Its Day; while I don't want to speculate on the intentions of the troper(s) who added them, they're inaccurate, speculative, and particularly in the case of the one justifying banning homosexuality, offensive. As for Arch-Enemy and Character Tics, I don't think we should delete the RL examples just for "troping real people" unless there's a clear problem with them.
Edited by rjd1922 on Jun 15th 2019 at 9:07:17 AM
Keet cleanup
Crown Description:
Vote up to either forbid all real life examples (No Real Life Examples Please) or forbid real life examples for specific subjects (Limited Real Life Examples Only); vote down to Keep Real Life Examples. To add a trope to a No Real Life Examples Please index or the Limited Real Life Examples Only index, its crowner option must meet the following criteria:- Stable 2:1 ratio needed for NRLEP or LRLEO
- Must have been up for a minimum of a week
- If the vote is exactly 2:1 or +/- 1 vote from that, give it a couple of extra days to see if more votes come in.
Edited by rjd1922 on Jun 6th 2019 at 11:42:39 AM
Keet cleanup