Spider-Man General Discussion

I'm pretty sure it was Doom who created a paradox-free Time Machine. Other Time Machines created alternate timelines, but Doom's Time Machine was the only one that actually changed time.

ASM#27

Aw, Electro feels welcome, and Beetle and Randy are an item

Man I can't wait for the Robbie-Tombstone conflict tussle that's gonna lead to.

Didn't Tombstone drop his feud with Robbie after the guy went at him with a pitch fork?

I only know of this secondhand (probably through this site), but I believe that during an arc where Tombstone was threatening Robbie, Robbie tried to kill him by exposing him to some kind of gas/chemical, but accidentally gave Tombstone super powers in the process. But on the plus side, a suitably grateful Tombstone left Robbie alone after that.

This was sort of adapted in the 90's cartoon, although I think they implied that Tombstone already had super powers/was undead (IIRC when exposed to the gas he commented to the effect that he didn't need to breathe).

Edit- Also nice to have that speculation about Randy prove true.

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 14th 2019 at 9:00:08 AM

so today’s cover is an homage to the first appearances of the original Sinister Syndicate (ASM #280)

Edited by megaeliz on Aug 14th 2019 at 7:03:55 AM

I think I got that one.

Kinda funny to see female Ock (I'm assuming that's Carolyn Trainer) with the Syndicate when her namesake was the original leader of the Six instead.

....why is there both a Sinister Syndicate and a Sinister Six? Is there a difference between them, or is it an Injustice League, Secret Society dealie where it's two different names for the same concept?

from what I understand, it’s a “different name, same concept” type of deal.

Presumably, they had to change the name when the roster got too big.

Edited by megaeliz on Aug 14th 2019 at 7:41:50 AM

Wait, there's a female Scorpion?

Yeah-a Jobber, through-and-through, though. Her biggest splash was getting kidnapped so she could be hunted alongside other animal-themed supers by Kraven and Arcade.

Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Aug 14th 2019 at 8:27:41 AM

This event just keeps getting more and more macabre◊.

Two, actually.

• http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/scorpiaspdrmn.htm
• https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Carmilla_Black_(Earth-616)

I flashed back to that one Steve Martin scene from ¡Three Amigos!.

So close too.

So what do you guys think about Caroline Trainer!Ock anyway?

Good idea, poor execution in The '90s. Now's a good time to introduce her while Ock is up to his anti-hero charade in the Superior title.

And especially after Liv Octopus made waves in ITSV, it's a really good time to develop her.

She was pretty good in Spider-Girl the comic book

I like the retool and "stealth adaptation" of Liv.

I know this may be controversial with Revolutionary Jack, but I love the current Superior Spider-Man run. It's very funny and I think Ock works as a arrogant semi-recovered supervillain because of the fact that other characters puncture his arrogance and he actually seem to be becoming a better person. I hope this version of him will last (although it probably won't).

For what it's worth though, I kind of think (and could anticipate a reveal to this effect) that he's a good guy because he's not the "real" Octavius. He's genetically a combination of Peter and Octavius and his memories/consciousness is derived from Ock overwriting himself into Peter's brain. And then that mindset was placed into a cloned body who then cloned himself a couple more times to arrive at the body which exists now. So arguably he's less Octavius than a clone of Peter who thinks he's Octavius. And since Peter is a good guy...

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 14th 2019 at 10:02:40 AM

Hmmmmm . . . I don't think Gage would go that route. The idea of goodness being genetic? No, I think Gage is more likely to just show that redemption is possible for someone who genuinely works towards it. Otto continues to blame his evil life on a brain injury, but my thought is that, in his past life, he just never tried to be good. He let anger and resentment drive him. Once he made the decision to show that he could be a hero better than actual heroes, his ego pretty much forced him to embrace the role, and in the process, he's reconnecting with his own positive emotions. And I wouldn't be surprised if Gage goes that route, with Anna Maria telling him she's studied his brain scans and his brain injury excuse was bullshit and he had chosen to be an asshole in his original life, and what's making him good now is that he's choosing to do good.

Which actually fits with the modern Marvel philosophy defined by Ms. Marvel: "Good is not a thing you are, good is a thing you do."

But there are some supervillains who I think just can't be redeemed once they reach a tipping point of the absurd evil of their deeds. Like, Octavius has tried to take over/kill the world at least a couple times by now. I mean, yeah, Doom was an Avenger for a minute, but it literally took the intervention of an Omnipotent Reed to help him find peace and the absence of the Fantastic Four from the universe. Once they returned, he slipped right back into villainy, because Doom is a fundamentally flawed person. Evil may not be genetic but certain behavior is almost ingrained in people. The literal point of the end of Superior Spider-Man was Doc Ock accepting the fact that Peter was the Superior Spider-Man, not because he had better gadgets than Octavius, or was smarter or stronger, but he was just inherently a better person and a better hero. Giving Ock a get out of jail free "Neener Neener" card so he can come back and be a hero again, after destroying Peter's company and selling out to the Ultra-Nazis is horseshit.

Yeah, but Hawkeye shot Iron Man with a couple arrows, so obviously anyone can be redeemed.

Jokes aside, whether Otto deserves redemption is almost beside the point. The story's being told. The only question is how convincing it'll be. I haven't been reading Superior Spider-Man, aside from a couple issues I got digital codes for, so I don't know if Gage is actually selling the redemption convincingly. I was just noting that Gage doesn't seem the type to argue that goodness is actually some sort of inherent trait. Remember, the whole point of Avengers Academy was that they were the kids who could go bad. They had to decide which way they wanted to go.

I suspect Gage is doing something similar with Otto, making goodness a decision, rather than the result of Peter's DNA having some kind of hero gene.

I think Superior Ock is a fairly regressive concept especially in The New '10s where one of the preoccupations in a number of works, I am thinking of Rick and Morty, Bojack Horseman as well as a number of other works, as well as in real life — where the idea of redemption is challenged and corrected by many people because many see the "second chance" thing as a way of enabling bad behavior rather than correcting it — is the fact that the conventional idea of redemption has distorted and colored people's ideas to the extent that it has taken the place of a real thing.

Doctor Octopus cannot be considered redeemable if the entire thing is based on identity theft, and the greed of an older man vampirically sucking the body of a young man and using that to start relationships with women who would never be around the real him. Anna Maria would never have cared for the real Ock. To paraphrase the great Han Solo, 'That's not how redemption works'. That's why I see this entire thing as a charade. Obviously, Octopus will never be a permanent legacy of Spider-Man and never be permanently redeemed. The entire story you have now is based on a fraud of identity theft and stolen identity and other stuff that the narrative has to just give him a pass for against all legal norms and moral codes of human decency. The stuff about the brain-scan pseudo-science is probably handy when they inevitably bring back the real classic Octopus. It's similar to how Magneto returned to villainy after Claremont's brief bit of redemption in The '80s. Magneto found out Xavier altered his memories when he was de-aged and so on...and felt that his true self was his bad old self. And I think Dr. Octopus' true self is his evil self. Neither Lee nor Ditko or anyone in the character's first 30 years thought he had any good in him.

Compare Superior Ock to Doom's Infamous Iron Man. In Bendis' (really underrated) series, Victor takes on the legacy of Iron Man as part of an attempt to redeem himself and transform into a superhero. There's a difference...Victor openly does this. He doesn't hijack Tony's life or that of a pre-existing hero (he did that and got punished for it in Hickman's Secret Wars (2015) where given god-like power he stole Reed's life and family). He's called out for it numerous times and it's made clear that the consequences of his actions will always be with him even were he to continue to remain good. Redemption isn't and can't be an on/off switch. And of course there's a lot more tragedy in the case of Victor von Doom since he really tried to be a hero in that story and he was honest and earnest with anyone, straight and clear. That's not the case with Otto...so to me when Otto returns to villainy, there won't be any tragedy there. Whereas Doom is a legitimate tragic figure.

The only tragedy of Doom is that his tenure as Iron Man wasn't handled by a better writer.

The only real tragedy of Doom is that he doesn’t dress like the Doombot in Runaways does

That’s one damn classy Doombot

@Tiamatty- Yeah, I do see your point with the issues with "goodness as genetic" having a lot of Unfortunate Implications. I wasn't really thinking of genes, but more that this version has a brain that's mostly physically that of Peter and also has Peter's memories. Which makes me wonder the extent to which the remnants of Peter's consciousness are tempering Octavius' bad impulses.

And I think you could do something interesting with the idea of this Octavius deciding to be his own person after confronting the fact that while he didnt do the various evil things that the "real" Octavius did, he still had those impulses, even if he would no longer listen to them now. Which might have the benefit of keeping writers from reverting him to being evil.

But yes, I do agree that it is probably better to keep the focus on how Octavius becomes a good person because for the first time he actually thinks about the well-being of others. I find it a touching idea that more than anything else, caring about other people is the foundation of what it means to be good.

For what it's worth, I also liked the redeemed Doom and wished he would have stayed that way (I'm a sucker for redemption arcs). However, I feel like paradoxically, it's more plausible for Octavius to be redeemed (and to stay that way) than Doom, despite Doom much more frequently showing the potential to be a good guy. Basically, Octavius is someone who probably always knew his actions were wrong, but was too self-centered to care. Which makes it plausible that when he starts caring, he acts better. Whereas although Doom has better impulses and a genius that could allow him to do a lot of good, on a fundamental level, Doom can never really admit to his actions being wrong (at least not for a sustained period), and sees everyone opposed to him as an enemy.

@ Revolutionary Jack - I do mostly agree. Like I think in Doyleist terms, it's quite obvious that Octavius was given a new body and is no longer stealing Peter's is a way to justify him as a hero. Because if he was still bodyjacking, any good he did wouldn't make up for that fundamentally evil action.

I also agree both that the "Superior Spider-Man" during the original run was a terrible person and that the fact that one of the first things this interaction of Octavius did was join Hydra (and get a "fashy haircut") is obviously not a good way to start on the road to heroism. However, in the new series, he's written as being much less evil in what I'd consider a "soft retcon". It also helps that ever since Octavius stole Peter's body, each version of him ends up having a Heel Realization and (usually) making a Heroic Sacrifice.

As far as the Rick and Morty comparison goes, although I think that was arguably true for the Slott iteration (although the plan was always to have Peter acknowledged as "superior"), the current version is frequently put in his place and makes genuine steps to be better to other people, things that are frequently missing with other Insufferable Genius characters.

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 15th 2019 at 9:45:31 AM

I only read the first issue where he threatens to kill a villain’s entire extended family if he didn’t leave town so it must have been a hell of an uphill climb

After Anna Maria figures out that that Elliot Tolliver is Otto Octavius, she actually confronts him about it, and lets him have it.