Professional Wrestling

Welp, we now have our first ever trans, native-american wrestling world champion in a major network program. ALL HAIL The Native Beast, NYLA ROSE!

Edited by Gaon on Feb 12th 2020 at 6:57:07 AM

That match was fantastic.

I wish Fite.tv offered it's AEW Plus service in Canada. Seriously, so much to catch up to.

Yeah, it was amazing live and so much better than their first match back in October.

I've known about Nyla Rose for years, but I never knew about her being trans until I clicked on TV Tropes's All Elite Wrestling page.

I did read something awhile back(2012? 14?) about one of the Joshi feds accepting a post operation woman into their dojo, so I guess that could have been her, but I'm almost certain that promotion was Ice Ribbon, that Rose has never worked for it, didn't make her Japanese debut until 2016 and in fact had wrestled for at least three years in the US prior. Genickbruch does give her the "no longer" sex symbol and suggests she's been wrestling for twelve years, but since its archived record doesn't go back further than my recollection I'm not sure even they knew.

I'll admit I have never been the world's biggest Native Beast fan, I didn't look at her Genickbruch page until just now, but I've had a soft spot for Nyla Rose for as long as I've known about her. Was that just common knowledge I somehow never gained? I was never even under the impression she was commonly known, did anyone besides me even say, put anything about Nyla Rose on this wiki before she signed to All Elite Wrestling?

Good of Dustin Rhodes for defending Nyla Rose by bringing up his Trans son. To think when he got the Golddust gimmick decades ago, he had to look up what "androgynous" meant and went Oh, Crap!

Edited by DS9guy on Feb 20th 2020 at 11:03:52 AM

Omega and Hangman really work well as a tag team.

AEW's response to the backlash in general has been nothing short of class. Cody also did a few interviews where he basically told transphobes that they have no place either working for AEW or watching AEW so they can pretty much just buzz off (but in a classier way).

And SWEET BABY JESUS, last night was one of the best shows I ever watched. Just quality wall-to-wall. It got to the point I got so engrossed in Lucha Bros vs Page and Omega that I thought it was the main event. When it ended and they went with Wardlow vs Cody I was absolutely delighted to be reminded of it. The match itself was aces and that finisher.

Dear God that finisher.

Attended IWC: Ignition at Court Time Sports Center in Elizabeth, PA:

First match was Philip Archer and Jason Tyler vs Team Big League (Elijah Dean and Zach Nydstrom). TBL looked good out there. Archer and Tyler are new wrestling school guys and it shows. Doesn't help that they're both big (heavy) guys who don't have much agility or technique. But TBL carried them until TBL wins by pinfall. I know they're supposed to be the heels, but I was definitely cheering them on.

Angelik vs Chest Flexor

Very short match. Angelik (formerly Jason Gory) offered Flexor a golden feather. Flexor accepted it, mocked it, threw it back. Two kicks, a slam, and a pin. Flexor carried out by Ginger.

Steak 'n' Eggs vs Regulators (Tag belt)

Bulk Nasty stuck Zander Gabriel in a locker in a segment before the match, tries to go it alone as the team of "Bulk and Bulk". Starts getting beat down by heel tactics. Zander comes out to rescue him, they work together, and win the match, with Steak 'n' Eggs winning.

Jamie "Lebanon Don" Moses comes out and challenges Jimmy Vega$ to a fight. Of course, when Vega$ comes out, he gets jumped by Edgar Johnson, Ryan Dye, Chase Gold, and Jason Tyler (who actually bows out, forfeiting his payment, rather than get a beat down). Vega$: beats them soundly, says he'll make his announcement later in the night.

John McChesney vs Stephen Slade

Slade looks strong (McChesney is the best at selling). McChesney keeps stooping to cheat (which actually kind of works here, because he's visibly not as chiseled as Slade). Finally wins with an air horn (Slade wears special head-gear to protect his hearing aids), kick, and pin.

Hardcore Hooven vs Mambo Italiano (High Stakes belt)

Shane Douglas as ref, turned into Extreme Rules Match with weapons. More blood than I expected, with Hooven starting to drip early on. Hooven might have lost a tooth? Mambo won. They shook hands. RC Dupree came out to issue challenge.

Jeff Cobb beat Jaxon Argos

Good match. Hard fought on both sides. Argos is heelish, but no cheating, which is refreshing. Some nice reversals.

Shawn Phoenix vs Johnny Patch vs Anthony Young vs Jami Jameson

Johnny Patch won. Some impressive acrobatic spots, but a lot of pauses to set up moves. Angelik interfered to get Phoenix out of the match, Jameson got knocked out of the ring, and Patch pinned Young for the win.

Atticus Cogar does a video spot about how he grew strong due to growing up in a poor neighborhood in Cleveland. While the lights are out, The Culmination gets into place, and when the lights come up, Patch is jumped by them.

Bill Collier vs Andrew Palace

There's a video spot that establishes that Palace believes that Collier is part of Team Big League due to the last show having Collier accidentally punch Palace to lose the match for their team. After a hard-fought match where Collier keeps asking Palace if this is what he really wants, and with Collier occasionally accusing Palace of being the traitor, Collier wins. Team Big League arrives, offers him a place in their team. He takes their T-shirt, only to ball it around his fist and deliver a beat-down to them, helped by Slade and eventually Palace.

Queen Aminata vs Katie Arquette

Aminata enters accompanied by Justin LaBar. OK match with some miscues and at least once case where Aminata tumbles backwards a second before Arquette attacks. Arquette gets a 3-count pin, but LaBar distracts the ref and then Aminata gets her attack in, and the pin.

Jack Pollock vs Brian Pillman

Brutal match with a lot of back and forth, including a fair amount of action outside the ring. Ultimately, Pollock prevails. Afterwards, Jimmy Vega$ enters, flanked by Superhentai and Jimmy's daughter for his announcement, which involves his retirement due to head injuries. Pollock asks for one last match in March. Vega$ declines, whereupon Pollock asks him to don his face mask one more time. Cue Vega$ headbutting Pollock (apparently drawing blood and cracking the mask), slamming three referees, several security staff, and the owner of the IWC, Justin Plummer, whereupon he accepts said match in March.

Overall, I had fun. My fun was amplified by the little girl sitting behind me who was perfectly content to do her chant through the entirety of a match even if no one else joined in (she was a huge fan of McChesney and Arquette).

I'm glad you and she had fun! When I had gone to shows, if there was a kid nearby, I'd either back up their cheer, or if they're cheering the face and there's a heel I like, I'd give a small cheer for the heel, to encourage the kid to cheer more for his face. Audiences have a lot of power to help get people over, but it seems like we barely use it anymore, even for people we might like.

On another note, in WWE, is anyone else already annoyed by the Ricochet vs Lesnar match, since Lesnar only has three match styles?

1. Sell a spot or submission for about a minute, hit some moves to make us remember there are no challenges, and win.
2. Get hit in the balls and lose.
3. Utterly trash any potential star that he doesn't personally like.

We could have had fun spots like 2019 Kofi backflipping and landing on his feet after a suplex, then boom dropping the prone Lesnar, who shakes it off and goes all mad bull. Or 2018 Jinder doing his running knee from all four sides of the ring just to knock Lesnar down once. Or 2017 Samoa Joe actually making Lesnar pass out, but Heyman forcing the title retention by DQ. Or Lashley challenging, if WWE wasn't trying to hide them from each other. Lesnar could even win most of those and still look strong, but not make the rest of the roster look like ants.

But no, we have a "final boss" no one can honestly believably take down and bring any real competition to. Like even if/when Drew wins at Mania, does anyone really believe Lesnar would lose a rematch?

Does anyone believe anyone in the roster without both the size and skill of Keith Lee could beat Lesnar more than once? Or even that any hall of famer besides Mark Henry, or Triple H's golden shovel, could? If no, what's the point? What's the difference between anyone else?

I'll be honest and say I never actually liked Brock Lesnar all that much, in no small part due the factors you said. He's steadily gotten worse and worse, though. These days I can't stand him. Ricochet is just the illustration of this because he is a high-flying smaller Luchador type, my favorite type of wrestler, and he's bound to be decimated by "must look strong at all times" Brock Lesnar.

I miss when Ricochet was Prince Puma.

Edited by Gaon on Feb 25th 2020 at 9:22:17 AM

I'm still upset they didnt go with Braun being the one to dethrone him when they had the chance. Brock wouldnt have lost any cred, and Braun could have been the next Andre (only one who actually held the title).

To me, Braun is actually the rare instance where Lesnar actually did a good job of showing why he should retain. That sequence when he got mad about Strowman's stiff knee and decimated him in two hits? It showed how Braun was almost hilariously outmatched and still green.

To me, Samoa Joe like 90% should've beaten Brock. And 100% Joe should've beaten AJ.
But given Joe tried the same failed game plan against Kofi, who had already not only seen it coming but showed he wasn't to be underestimated, Joe was right to lose that feud.
Honestly, they didn't lean enough into how smartly Kofi planned around Joe. Have Joe attempt to go to Kofi's house to intimidate his family, but E and Woods are there ready and waiting for him. Still, that line "your ass is too big to be playing hide and seek!" was a good one.

I've been meaning to book what should've happened in Kofi vs. Lesnar, as a 2 minute sprint match. Kofi would've still lost, but it would've been an interesting match that played off of story.

So, either it's a coincidence, or Dear Dr RKO can work as an anagram of Dark Order. While it wouldn't surprise me if it's the former, if it's the latter, best to wait, just in case we're getting red herrings in our faces, last thing we want is to get the wrong idea.

Anyway, do we have an elaborate list of suspects when it comes to the identity of the Exalted One in AEW? Last I remember, Matt and Brodie Lee were the top two guesses.

Okay, how I would've booked Kofi vs. Brock:

In the lead up to the match, Kofi expressed the same amount of self-assurance he did in real life. In an interview with Michael Cole (or preferably Byron Saxton, who is better at working with the New Day), he gets asked if he thinks he's taking Brock too lightly. Kofi explains he's already lost to Brock, badly in fact (at Beast in the East). And there's lots of tape on Brock's fights. A bit of a shortage of tape since Brock's an absent champion, not a fighting champion like himself, but there's still tape. He knows what to expect, and he's studied. He's ready.

Not necessary, but to prove his point, and for a fun unexpected match, they could have the last episode of Smackdown on USA network feature one on one or a handicap non-title match between the members of the New Day, especially if Big E stands in for Lesnar, with Woods as an added physical challenge. E lands at least one suplex and F-5 on Kofi, but Kofi powers through, and takes a hard fought victory. Commentary are impressed, but question if anyone can fill in for the strength that is Brock Lesnar.

Earlier in the night of the title match itself, we see the New Day warming up Kofi with some jab combinations backstage. Rey Misterio, still hobbled from his interaction with Brock on Monday, makes a surprise appearance (not just as a member of the Smackdown 6, but because of his vendetta). He attempts to offer Kofi advice, but Kofi says "Thanks, and I do appreciate it, but with all due respect I know the lessons I needed to see from watching you on Monday. I'll get him back for you. No more talking. This is straight to business."

As the match vs Brock starts, Kofi comes out 2nd as champions are supposed to, and sends Woods and E to the back. He's very sure of himself. The graphic showing each fighter's total championships (Kofi had either 17 or 18 at the time, for a full Grand Slam; Brock had 7 total World and Universal championships) stays up for a while. Commentary says they're both great fighters, and Kofi has variety, but Brock has unequaled power. They still talk up that Kofi had spent his entire reign being underestimated, but maybe he's underestimating Brock. Heyman steals a commentary mic to say this will be quick.

• Bell rinks. Kofi squares up to look for a Collar and Elbow lockup. Brock does his usual chuckle.
• Kofi goes in for it anyway, but instead of responding with the collar and elbow, Brock wraps his waist to go for a suplex. Brock falls on his back to go for the German release suplex, but Kofi lands on his feet, facing the hard cam, with a quick wry smile, before immediately doing the Boom Drop, rolling back, and staring down Brock.
• Brock gets up quickly, rolling towards the "heel corner" (hard cam side, corner closest to timekeepers). His shoulders are still chuckling, but his face is half-smile half-frown.
• Brock lunges full speed at Kofi, but Kofi ducks/leapfogs/sidesteps around it, then as Brock runs into the ropes in the back-right corner, Kofi immediately turns to hit Brock with a Trouble in Paradise to the back of the head, sending him out of the ring. Brock is outside on the floor now, shaken a little. No chuckles, and with a close zoom on his face, you can see he's getting serious....
• But the camera pans up and zooms out a little, and Kofi's already leaping from the corner turnbuckle onto Brock for a Back Splash, sending Brock back to the floor for a bit. As Brock slowly gets back Up, Kofi's already scrambled back up the ring steps to the corner, then hits a diving clothesline. Sending Brock down onto his face.
• Commentary has quickly changed tone, noting how quick Kofi's moving, and how he's anticipating Brock's movements, confirming that they did indeed underestimate Kofi, as has been the theme of his reign as champion, but he has always been ready to fight, and Brock hasn't connected a single move yet. Heyman is shouting at Brock to hurry up and get ready.
• Kofi goes for his third dive attack, probably a dropkick, but Brock catches him in midair, gets him on his shoulders, and gives him an F-5 onto the top of the barricade. Kofi is shaken by the devastating hit, but Brock is pissed off.
  • Note that this is Brock's first offensive move, and only the fifth move hit the entire match. This match is a sprint, using the environment and momentum for added power.
• Kofi rolls off the barricade, but Brock picks him up, and throws him into the apron, before rolling him back into the ring. Kofi is hurt, but Brock's also clearly not at 100%
• Commentary points out that Kofi came prepared, and even began to embarrass Lesnar a bit, but that may have only woken "The Beast". And with that F-5 onto the barricade, he can't keep up the speed he had before that kept Brock guessing.
• Brock picks Kofi up by the braids. Kofi, holding wrapping his left arm across his chest, gives on defiant, hard right hand to Brock, and rocks him a bit, but the writing is on the wall. Brock gives Kofi an F-5 onto the top rope, and then a third and fourth F-5 onto the mat, before covering him for the pinfall, with an open hand pressing hard on Kofi's now-hurting chest.

If this works right, the entire crowd is left deflated, scared, or silent. Brock doesn't let up on the cover, even as Heyman retrieves the belt. Big E and Woods rush down the ramp, but Brock still doesn't move. With his hand on Kofi's open chest, he stares the two of them down as they're about to enter the ring...

but the camera shows an over the shoulder shot from Brock, to them, with the ramp itself in frame. Rey Misterio hobbles out... and then right behind him, Cain Velazquez. Brock, now looking at all of these people staring him down, rolls out of the ring and retreats.

We get a brief shot of the New Day consoling Kofi, that he took the fight to Brock. Commentary points out that while Kofi trained and put up a great fight, he got caught outright. And that that can happen to anyone in a fight... and the last man who caught Brock Lesnar in UFC is at the top of the ramp, Cain Velazquez.

So, how does that sound? The objectives were:

• to show how Kofi was underestimated but always ready to fight, and a worthy champion
• to show that on any given day, anyone, even Brock Lesnar, could be taken by surprise
• to show that Brock already has been beaten, and even he has his limits

Preferably, a still-angry, shaken Brock is the one who goes into the fight with Cain, to explain why he won that fight.

I'm still finding a problem in that Brock still wins, so there's still no single person who could take him on. Also, ever since the night of Kofi vs Brock, I've had this idea for a spot in my mind. As they're outside of the ring, Brock would charge at kofi, but kofi kicks off of that barricade to dodge Brock, and step off Brock's back as he runs past, sending him full tilt into the timekeeper's area. It's just that one spot would be redundant to some other ideas.

Saw that. I'd kind of prefer it to be Brodie Lee and not Matt, since Huber could use the momentum more, and because I prefer Broken Matt as a force for good. But it's a win either way.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Feb 25th 2020 at 12:12:18 PM

From what I've gathered the usual suspects for The Exalted One basically are:

• Matt Hardy
• Luke Harper (a.k.a Brodie Lee)
• Raven
• Christopher Daniels
• Marty Scurll

Those are the plausible ones. From those, Daniels, Raven and Hardy are the ones that AEW has actually explicitly teased more openly. Daniels by way of the Dark Order's constant dealings with him and the occasional tease of him doing a Face–Heel Turn and returning to his "Fallen Angel" Dark Messiah character that made him so famous in TNA ("A romantic evil, a savior of the damned..."). Out of all of them I think he's the least likely as Daniels has fought with the Dark Order way too often to make the twist plausible, though I do think he'll join forces with them at some point and switch back to The Fallen Angel. I just doubt he'll be The Exalted One. If anything, the Exalted One might be the one to turn him to establish his threat level as a charismatic leader. So I see Daniels as the clearest Red Herring.

Raven was teased briefly by showing up in the crowd during AEW Dynamite in an episode that involved the Dark Order (and AEW's social accounts drawing attention to this). Personally, I'd love if Raven was the one. The Dark Order's philosophy suits right in Raven's established ethos and he's one of the best ever in the mic as well as a bona-fide legend.

Hardy is the man of the hour so suffice to say that, with AEW, Evil Uno and Hardy himself all going hard for the tease. I actually think Raven would overall suit in the team's overall dark aesthetic and appeal to "losers" better, but Hardy is the bigger name and he'd also be absolutely fantastic.

Scurll is great, though Villain Enterprises is pretty far from The Dark Order thematically and he's tied up with ROH, but given the relationship between AEW and ROH a cooperative deal sounds pretty possible. He'd be pretty good, and he's much greater in the ring than most of the other choices (Hardy and Raven are both pretty ancient by now), but I prefer both Hardy and Raven for the role. More gravitas and more fitting thematically. I'd rather Villain Enterprises made its own entrance separate of the Dark Order.

I like Harper, but he's both the most unlikely and also the one that's hardest to sell for me because WWE's booking has muddied his name a bit and he's still very closely tied to a act similar to the Dark Order (Wyatt Family), which might come across too much as "AEW doing WWE's shtick but different". I'd love him to be a member of the Dark Order, though.

More unlikely and out of left-field choices occasionally bandied around are:

• Vampiro (who somehow does not have a page, what the fuck)
• Jake Roberts ("You wanna play 21?")
• Diamond Dallas Page ("BANG!")

So the speculation has gotten pretty wild and pretty juicy. Vampiro has said he craves a match with Jericho but he has actual, very serious, early onset Alzheimer's disease so I'd honestly rather he stayed home. He's also pretty busy with AAA and has a tendency to shoot anyone in sight when he feels like it, so overall I feel like he should rest. Diamond Dallas Page I feel works way better as a sort of Good Counterpart to the Exalted One (going by his famous work helping to lift up wrestlers with DDP Yoga) and doesn't quite suit the role of a dark messiah.

I would, however, be absolutely there for Jake the Snake as The Exalted One if A) his role is purely talk-based B) his sobriety remains rock-solid. Aside from being one of the absolute greats on the mic, his quiet shimmering intensity would be excellent for the group and a part of me would just find very heart-warming to see Jake the Snake get his proper dues in one final role in his career. Still, it'd be risky given his age and struggles with substances.

So, in the end my top choices would be Raven, Matt Hardy and Jake the Snake for a absolute wild card, with the former two being the most likely. I get the sense AEW is seeing if they can get Hardy and keeping Raven as their back-up plan in case that falls through.

Quoth the Raven: Nevermore.

Speaking of Samoa Joe, he's out on Wellness Policy violations, although the write-ups sound a bit more like "benched for a concussion" than "caught shooting up".

Anyone got thoughts on my Brock vs Kofi booking idea?

So, I've seen spoilers for Super Showdown and all I'll say is this: whoever's in charge of WWE's Horrible page and the X-Pac Heat trope page, you have your work cut out for you.

No, but seriously, Goldberg squashed Wyatt in a title match.

And now, on brighter news: AEW signed up Lance Archer and booked PAC vs. Orange Cassidy for Revolution.

Making Goldberg universal champ after squashing the Fiend and also Brock Lesnar completely demolish Ricochet in the same week of their rivals first PPV of the year is a truly astounding business decision that just marvels me, and both done in the worst humanly possible way (i.e squash matches). It's like WWE just listened to all the criticisms against them and went "yeah, sounds about right".

That's a level of self-sabotage beyond my wildest imaginations.

I quite liked your pitch for Kofi vs Brock. Good way of doing a wrestling Hopeless Boss Fight.

The entirety father TV Tropes Professional Wrestling thread to AEW confirmed.

I know that beyond NXT, I'm kinda done with WWE. That much is for sure. They don't know what the hell they're doing anymore.

The thing about Goldberg vs. Fiend is that they could've booked the match the exact same way, and still had the other guy take the pin, and it would've made the same amount of sense: ZERO.

They just booked themselves into a stupid corner by putting a title on a monster in an age when monsters don't need titles, and fans were gonna turn on him eventually, and making it so that even in wins the monster just gets hit and then says "lol no". This was just them ripping the bandaid off now in advance of mania.

Anyway, remember this time last year Kofimania was red-hot? If I'd stuck to my convictions and stopped watching American wrestling immediately after Wrestlemania, I'd have been able to end on a high note. But no, first there was the worry that they'd take it off him right away, and then other things kept me at least checking synopses. Now, there isn't actually any reason for me to watch, except to note when/if Miz and Kofi break 20 total championships (Miz is now at 19, Kofi's at 18). Outside of that, there's really no point to WWE anymore. As mentioned with Brock, it's not like there's any real change at the top of the mountain whether or not titles change hands. The Womens Tag Belts, or Bianca losing back to back, are emblematic of how there's still a low ceiling for non-blonde women (whether or not Sasha beats Trish at Mania this year). Tag wrestling worldwide has taken a nosedive since AEW spread the top talent thin (and their existence brought down WWE tag wrestling, because now teams are being signed just to keep them contracted. Plus the Revival are overrated.)

Thank you for the support! I was thinking about it earlier today and I thought maybe Kofi should get 1 or 2 moves more offense in.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Feb 27th 2020 at 9:38:28 AM

I do think they in some way were between a rock and a hard place, but this is the worst possible way to do it. Like, online I've seen suggestions such as Fiend losing by DQ after going absolutely mental due his incapacity to put down Goldberg, or even Goldberg legitimately winning but Fiend then immediately proceeding to attack Goldberg and rapture him to the shadow realm or somesuch. Just something to maintain The Fiends's aura of fear rather than hurling a absolute hammer through it.

On the topic of Brock: these days I'd actually want to see a small wrestler beating Brock in true hellacious David vs. Goliath manner. Kofi is as a good name as any. Like, to my reckoning, Brock has only ever been beaten by "big men" before, with the sole and singular exception of Eddie Guerrero (once) over a decade ago in what I consider the best match of Brock's whole career. Kofi, Ricochet, Rey Mystério, Andrade would be good names for it, but the previous two have already been well and truly squashed by him, Mistério is even older than Brock and his knees are fucked, which leaves me with Andrade, who has just been suspended for a wellness policy violation, so, shit.

Honestly, WWE has always treated dwarf wrestling as a complete joke but I've always had the pie in the sky dream of seeing a legitimate mini-estrella in the Mexican tradition fighting Brock, but that'll never happen in a billion years.

In a more unrelated and even more pie-in-the-sky aside I've also always had the thought of a tag team of wrestlers composed by a Mini-Estrella (i.e a wrestling dwarf) and a typical WWE wrestling behemoth allá Brock or Braun and have them basically be Master-Blaster from Beyond The Thunderdome, with the dwarf standing on the giant's shoulders. Call them Gargantua and Pantagruel. Someone should get on that, someday.

Edited by Gaon on Feb 28th 2020 at 9:23:20 AM

Not quite what you're looking for, but mixed-height tag team matches do exist.