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Whoever did this article - Thank you. You are awesome and you deliver.

Large Blunt Object: I think I can take credit for a lot of this page (having entirely rewritten the body text and added about a quarter of the tropes), but like everything else here, it's mostly the Wiki Magic.Also - Thank you for greatly brightening up my day. :D

Mr Onimusha: I second the congratulations, I stumbled upon this article yesterday and, as an avid player, I LOVES it. The only thing missing is some kind of explanation about why the Squats are Personae Non Grata

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Large Blunt Object: 11/05/08. Sixty-five new tropes in one edit. TROPES FOR THE TROPE GOD, WICKS FOR THE WICK THRONE!

ungulateman: HARRIERS FOR THE CUP!


Fast Eddie: Too many long quotes.
Gabe: Well, isn't the enemy of your enemy, like, your friend? Or whatever? Can't they team up?
Tycho: Not exactly. In this setting, the enemy of your enemy is still a floating, greasy, armored brain.
Gabe: Well, what about his enemy? Maybe you could be friends with him.
Tycho: No, because that guy is a mechanical horror in an undying battle shell. He sails from world to world in a flying tomb, serving gods who eat hope.
An example is the best way to explain it. There's a god of hope, and the god of freaking hope is evil.

Large Blunt Object: Would just the PA one be acceptable?

Fast Eddie: Actually, that's the one that is the issue. I'm not just working from some sort of quote-hating place. Really. The principle is that the further down the page you push the opening of the article text, the better your chances are of losing the reader. The PA quote has the additional issue of not making any sense until after you know about Warhammer 4k, and we have to assume the reader came to the page about Warhammer 4k, not Penny Arcade. Anyway... the quote is not a good lead. Might make a good side-quote.

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Large Blunt Object: Eh... I thought that quote was particularly effective, especially as a sort of third-party description that helps people who know nothing about 40k. But since I haven't fitted into that camp since I was about twelve I'm probably not the best person to judge.

Dialogue tends to look terrible in sidequotes though, doesn't it?

Fast Eddie: Didn't look great. I tried working it into the text a bit.

Large Blunt Object: Bleh, really doesn't do it for me. Body quotes are absolutely awful, tempted to just pull it entirely. Honestly, I don't agree with the hate for long initial quotes, especially on series pages rather than trope pages; it takes no effort for the reader to skip a quote, and they generally add a nice alternate summary and counterpoint to the block of text. I'd expect a casual reader to be put off more by seeing nothing but a wall of half-blue description than a good leading quote that gives a flavour of the article.

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Eh. You're the boss.

Fast Eddie: Not the boss of anything. It strikes me as a poor lead. It should at least be, as you say, easily skippable (by following formatting cues) if it is at the top. I do confess that I'm reacting to the trend of people just dumping tons of stuff at the top of an article just because they think the quote it cute. It seems disrespectful of the article, that someone think that all this stuff written elsewhere is more important than what we had to say on the subject.

Large Blunt Object: Well, you are an admin, and I know better than to try to get into an Edit War with one. :P If it were anyone else, I'd probably be defending this to the death.

With the formatting it had before, the quote was distinct and easily skippable. I feel putting a quote at the head of the page is simply a good page format, rather than in any way making the quote seem more important; having a quote in the page at all shows that the opinion quoted matters. If anything, the "as Penny Arcade explains it" line is more of a "these people's opinions matter" than just a quote at the top, where people expect it to be. And even without that, sidequotes are messy and ugly and body quotes even worse.

Ultimately, I'm not going to flat-out defy the wiki equivalent of Word of God, but I've probably worked more on this page than any other troper and think with the balance between snarky quote and eager infodump, it was getting close to perfection. Without the quote, there's nothing to counter the big scary wall of text.


Large Blunt Object: I am not sure whether to be worried or amused that people searching for 40k porn get linked here.
  • KiTA: My fault, I'm afraid — a previous, now removed, entry talked briefly about the Slannesh Fanart of the Japanese manga artist Rebis. (Talk about Nightmare Fuel!) I wager it got picked up by Google before it was removed. My apologies.

Large Blunt Object: That was me that pulled it, cause it was... well, kind of irrelevant, but mostly creepy. And actually, the inbound was searching for "battle sisters sex" (on Danish Google), rather than Slaaneshi fetish stuff. Other inbound links have included "mechanical horror in undying battle shell" (from the now removed PA quote) and "moar dakka" (so either people associate, or we're getting linked a lot by the /tg/ crowd.)


Gentlemens Dame 883: Anyone want to offer some reasons under Canon Sue for why the G Ks count?

Gloating Swine: Most likely for the fact that even among Space Marines they're all Special And Different, have all the shiniest gear, psykers free of chaos taint, and all that. Don't play 40k TT, so I don't know whether they're considered unduly beardy (which would be the tabletop equivalent of Suedom.

Large Blunt Object: Actually, we had a discussion about this on GITP recently. Conclusion was, they're not just Sues, they're meta-Sues. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4322611&postcount=122)

Gentlemens Dame 883: Oh. That makes sense, I thing. Fascinating thread. But what's this "unduly beardy" thing?

Dr Dedman: Poorly balanced for points if you don't restrain yourself. GW is not known for doing a lot of work on balance.

Large Blunt Object: "Beardy" and "cheesy" are both slang for using rules loopholes/overpowered units excessively to gain an advantage, accusations often levelled at tournament players or powergamers. Also, the "not known for doing a lot of work on balance" is, well, bullshit, particularly in this case. Individually, Grey Knights may be mary sue powerful, but they're so costly excessively GK-heavy Witch Hunters armies rarely win. They need to be used as part of a more balanced army.

Gloating Swine: Beardy doesn't really mean poor points balance, it's like minmaxing in an RPG, tweaking your force for a completely optimal tabletop performance, despite the fact that it's not particularly true to the setting. I hear 5th Edition is meant to trim some of the more prevalent beards. (before the term comes up, "true to the setting" in 40k is called "Fluffy", due to the background material being collectively referred to as "Fluff".)

Grye Knights really don't hit me as Canon Sue in any way. Sure they're powerful, and they're pretty much the closest thing to "good guys" you can possibly get, but they're far from overwhelming in terms of storyline weight or presence, nor are they really all that perfect; they got slaughtered by the hundreds on Armaggeddon. Really, if we want to look for a Canon Sue in 40k, the Tau or the Necrons fit far more accurately.

Large Blunt Object: Eh, my feelings are neutral. It's certainly not something I'm going to fight to keep in. I just pulled the sudden threadmode natter and put in one summary.


Large Blunt Object: Pulled

  • Back-to-Back Badasses (The Emperor and Horus at the siege of Reillis, before everything went ploin shaped.)

because, well, that was just a mention, used once. It's far from a setting trope or a major plot point.


Large Blunt Object: 16/06/08. This page now throws up 500 results on the internal search engine. Halfway to the Kilowick.
Also, running this page through Gizoogle is making me hurt myself laughing.

  • Alien Geometries (Try not ta look too hard at Chaos cruisin' or anyth'n else Chaos makes, fo` tizzy playa . I started yo shit and i'll end yo' shit. Bad idea. )
  • Chillin' Good Baller tha Assault Cannon, a gatl'n gat whiznich can cut through light vehicles like a motha fucka. T-H-to-tha-izzen tha Vulcan Mega-Bolta, a gat tha sizeof a tizzle whizzich can mow diznown armies wit da big Bo$$ Dogg. Now look at tha Hellstorm cannon, a gatl'n gat tha size of a crazy ass nigga.

Large Blunt Object: Pulled
  • The Imperial Guard in general are Determinators, though in their case its due to the fact that they press on and continue fighting despite suffering incredible losses against things that would make most people curl up and cry in terror just by looking at them.
because no, they're normal men with shitty morale that need even scarier thinges behind them to stop them running away in terror...
  • ...and Arabic/Scottish/Scandanavian/Russian/German/American soldiers with laser/chainguns/flamethrowers/fusion cannons/bigger lasers riding titantic battle tanks commanded by Commissars.
because the Guard are really not very Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot. They're blokes, with guns, with tanks, with some Fantasy Counterpart Culture stuff occasionally.
  • When I added the part about the Guard being Determinators, I meant it as more of a characteristic of the entire army, not just the individual soldiers. The fundamental nature of the Guard is one of "press on despite massive, horrific casualties against horrors the likes of which most universes have never seen." The regular rank-and-file infantry are as far from being Determinators as one can imagine, but the overall structure, strategy, and character of the Guard is of this massive, overwhelming, implacable military force that soaks up losses without stopping, crushing opponents through brute force and sheer determination to win at any cost. Sort of a combination of We Have Reserves, Implacable Man, and De Terminator, but applying to the army as a whole.

Large Blunt Object: Still doesn't work for me, as Determinator seems very much about the resolve of the people themselves to keep on coming, rather than that of an organisation to keep on throwing redshirts at an objective...

...you know, that would actually make quite a good trope in its own right. The army which will keep going, no matter the cost. TO YKTTW! (later: YKTTWed as No Matter The Cost, let's see if this is a decent trope.

(And wait, Navigators can zap someone? I thought the third eye just let them see into the warp... Either way, that's Eye Beams anyway, pulling it.)

Khathi: In fluff, they can. See, they're basically just ultra-powerful psykers, who can (and will) see into the Warp and, sometimes, manipulate it to make a safe passage for the ship. So, they're a kind of witches themselves, and that's why Inquisition hates them with a vengeance. They can blow you head on a whim all right. Third eye (as I understand it) doesn't really have anything to it. It's just their most visible trait and kinda their symbol.

Large Blunt Object:

"Navigators are mutants of a very special kind, and although their appearance can vary a great deal they always have the power to navigate through warp space. Although this is a psychic ability, navigators never have other psychic powers and are no more vulnerable to psychically attuned warp creatures than any normal human. The origin of navigators goes back to the Dark Age of Technology, to a time of genetic experimentation when many kinds of mutants were engineered to fulfill roles envisaged by their creators. Whether navigators were created deliberately or by accident matters little in the Age of the Imperium, they are a fact of life and an important resource."
- "A Brief Overview of the Universe in the 40th Millenium"

...eh? Granted, that's a stupendously old (RT-era) source, but I haven't heard anything more recent that contradicts that description of Navigators. Are they described differently in Dark Heresy or something?


Large Blunt Object: Pruning
  • In fact, you can fuse together Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il, Suharto and Pinochet, and the result will still look like the Care Bears in comparison.
...pointless real world flamebait natter, in my 40k? Evidently it's more likely than I thought...

Fast Eddie(after an edit stomp): Major props to (primarily) Large Blunt Object on the readability of the article. It is getting major hits from off-site, now. Way to make it right, tight, and a delight.

Large Blunt Object: Between you and the Warseer "Most Incredibly Positive Inbound Link Of The Day," my head is going to swell up hugely.
(later)... holy shit, going through Inbound Links it seems everyone loves this page.

Fast Eddie: Can I preach, just a little bit? Forgive me, if I do. Fewer epigraphs ... BANG! Directly into the topic wins the world, every time. Cut the natter. The world stays around, tells its friends.

Large Blunt Object: Er. I thought we'd done... pretty well on that here. (Please don't ask for GRIMDARK to be removed. GRIMDARK stays.)


Servitor_2152: I've changed a few of the Wiki Words back to the way they're spelled in the page titles, like "Axe Crazy" and "Flanderization." Normally I wouldn't bother — on a site like this, British English and American English are six of one, half dozen of another in my opinion — but I do want to avoid needless redirects.

Large Blunt Object: This will sound horribly Wikipedian of me, but, from the redirect guidance bit of Welcome To TV Tropes:

  • These redirects are needed:
    • International English to American English and vice versa. "Color-Coded for Your Convenience" goes to "Colour-Coded for Your Convenience". For the record, the wiki is completely neutral on International English versus American English - we don't have a default; it's first-come, first-serve. Leave the variations alone when you see them, but feel free to write your own additions in whichever version you use.

Fast Eddie: Yup. Redirects are pretty inexpensive for titles, but imposing one set of rules over another on a spellcheck just raises side issues nobody really cares about. Thanks for spell checking, though!

Servitor_2152: Sounds good to me! I'll quit worrying about it, then.


Grimace: Nothing specifically to do with the article itself, just a query. For "Crapsack World", someone has made the entry...

  • And don't forget the thing that the Tyranids are running from...

I didn't realise the Tyranids were running from anything. I thought eating galaxies was just their "thing". Of course, I'm out of the loop a bit with 40k, so I hesitated from deleting that entry. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Gentlemens Dame 883: They say the reason the 'nids are invading is because they are running from Yarrick, who had wiped the floor with the majority of their kind in the past.

...

Seriously, I have no idea.

Large Blunt Object: I remember it was said by someone... somewhere... that the Nids are running from something much bigger and scarier than them. I can't remember if this is a canon thing, a canon vague-hint-that-doesn't-go-anywhere, a silly fan theory... Pulling it unless someone comes up with a source.


Gentlemens Dame 883: The content for Cosmic Horror was moved to Eldritch Abomination... So 40k's Warp entities don't count as Cosmic Horror, is that right?

Large Blunt Object: That's nonsense, fixing it. It would also be nice if the dude moving the link would actually put 40k on Eldritch Abomination...

Gd 1: There's this quote right here (The closest thing to the good guys you can find in this setting is a tiny alien empire sandwiched between all the other factions, and they have a thing for forcing new subjects into their empire through orbital bombardment, sterilisation, and concentration camps.)

Who would those guys be? The eldar? Where could I read about this?

Large Blunt Object: The Tau...

Uberschveinen: Don't forget the fact that their entire race is enslaved to the Ethereal's will by mind-controlling pheromones. The Tau are no better than any other race in the 40K universe. The only difference is that they pretend to be nice. That, as far as I'm concerned, only makes them worse, since everything else is honest about the fact that they're utter bastards.

Large Blunt Object: The pheremones thing is according to Xenology, which is non-canon... and are much nicer in how they go about things than anyone else.

Uberschveinen: Actually, it's a running theme in Tau lore that the Ethereals have some sort of uncanny control over the Tau. There is no other explanation offered, and the pheromonal control is accurate and doesn't contradict any existing information. In any case, there's no canon and non-canon in 40K given the perspective-based lore, just more and less authoritative, so anything that doesn't conflict with an equally or more authoritative piece of lore is accurate.

Large Blunt Object: Xenology is considered non-canon specifically because of the unique and downright weird conclusions drawn from it ("the Eldar created the Tau"). If there's canon, it isn't. If there isn't, then it's a far-out theory not borne out by any other source. In either case, leaving it out.


Uberschveinen: Fixed C'tan references. The name is the Dragon, not the Void Dragon. The latter was used once in one piece of lore, rectified in later printings, and has somehow spread so far that it's becoming a universal term despite the fact that it not only doesn't fit the naming conventions but is also the name of three other things.

Large Blunt Object: Is that really necessary? "Void Dragon" is so commonplace now that I hear GW staff using it, it's more or less become canon. And which three other things? I know the Void Dragon Phoenix, but the other two?

Uberschveinen: Heh. GW staff. Shop employees frequently know less than two-month players. Staff employees are, for the most part, little better. There are a few dozen people working for the corporation with some idea of what's going on, and probably ten who know as much as a lore-oriented veteran. How common it is is not relevant, since it's still not right. Once you see it referred to as such in a codex or rulebook, where there is some minimal quality control, then it's right. Assuming it's not a mistake there too.

There is a Void Dragon cruiser, a Void Dragon fighter, and a branch of Aspect Warriors referred to in fluff called the Void Dragons, who are apparently like melee-oriented Warp Spiders.

Large Blunt Object: You just said there's no canon or non-canon. Which is it going to be? And okay, forget the GW staff thing - everyone uses Void Dragon. You're the only person I've ever seen who quibbles over the "Void". Void Dragon is universal, it's your word against everyone else's it's "wrong", and that's not good enough. Unless you're going to tell me you're Gav Thorpe. (It's possible; I linked him here recently.)

And where are you getting these Void Dragon Aspect Warriors? (The Void Dragon Phoenix is a super-heavy flyer, not a fighter, for the record.)


Large Blunt Object: Master Hand, please stop changingtobecause it works much better with the two together, even if it is at the cost of alphabetical order, and also avoids going "Oh GOD!" like some kind of idiotic gushing fanboy. Only the most intelligent and refined fanboy/girl gushing here.

Master Hand: I am not an "idiotic gushing fanboy", I am doing that because it is so fucking remarkable. (I actually prefer Warhammer Fantasy to 40k.) If you notice, I have kept the two together, in the Refuge in Audacity part - (Basically runs off this trope and Rule of Cool.) - that way, it is still together but the alphebetical order is preserved. A passive mention is better than listing a trope out of order. If you like, I can use bold or itallics for emphasis, but I will not stop listing Rule of Cool where it belongs.

Large Blunt Object: And so we get

...uh huh.

Wasn't saying you were, was saying that was the effect given by that line, and I don't like it. And why on earth are you cutting the elf bits? Seriously, Eldar are space elves. How can you possibly deny that? (later: Okay, cutting all mention of "space elves" from the main article, you might have your reasons, however idiotic. But deleting me saying that? What the fuck is wrong with you?)

Anyway, I'm not even going to argue with you. Craftworld, Dark and Exodite Eldar are all clearly using High, Dark and Wood Elf stereotypes In Space. Word of God says it, it's utterly obvious, they're even named after Tolkien's elves. If you are going to deny they're space elves, you're insane. Plain and simple.

Master Hand: My reasons? WE ALL KNOW THAT. There's no need to shove it in everyone's face. One or two mentions is fine by me, but mentioning it every time the Eldar are discussed is just. too. much. We get it, they're elves, stop bludgeoning us with it. I tried to cut back on this, and you responded by making it worse. I only wanted to improve the article.

Large Blunt Object: Now you're just being ridiculous. You can put too much information in an article designed to inform? In an article this long, the repetition is useful for those who don't already KNOW THAT and are skipping bits rather than reading the whole vast page in one setting, and 40k is so damn over-the-top it does bear repeating. And more specifically, being space elves doesn't add to their Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot status, and it's irrelevant that the various kinds of Eldar are based on various kinds of elves? You are not improving the article in any way. Maybe next you'd like to remove all but one use of the term "super soldier", or "power armour", or "daemon"?

Master Hand: There's a fine line between too much information and too much retundant information. Reminding us that the Eldar are inspired by elves every sentence is enough to drive one up the wall. I really don't want to fight with you, but you're stressing me. You may notice that the page does link to Our Elves Are Better, that's enough for me. I'm sorry for interfering with your initiation to the Department of Redundancy Department, but it's for the good of the article's flow.

Large Blunt Object: No, it isn't. You won't answer the points and your specific changes are detracting from the article and have fuck-all to do with "flow". Mentioning that they're elves in Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot is not in any way redundant (that's the whole point of Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot), telling us Harlequins are space elves is not redundant (and detracts from the Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot funny) mentioning the specific kinds of elves the various factions are based on is not redundant (in fact, is the only point at which that is in the article), and that you go berserk every time you see the phrase "space elf" doesn't change that. You are trying to improve the article, you are failing, stop it.

...and the next time you continue a futile edit war for bullshit reasons, please hold off long enough to let me put poor Unknown 216.45.240.86's edits back, they must think we hate them. The unlock thing is there for a reason - it's because the previous person isn't done yet.

Master Hand: I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH YOU. I just think that we need to settle are differences. I'm not talking about Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot, what weirds me out is that you feel obliged to mention it in the relatively unrelated Scary Dogmatic Aliens. I want to compromise now, I have done what I think will compromise, so can we please stop arguing? I want this over as much as you do.

Large Blunt Object: The Scary Dogmatic Aliens section, which is basically where all the different races are described... where the Craftworld, Dark and Exodite Eldar are described all together, and you don't think it's the right place? Changing "elf" to "elven" just makes the most run-on sentence on the page even more grammatically questionable and makes no other difference, reverting that.

Master Hand: I was just doing what I think was right at the time. I didn't really realize that there wasn't a separate section to describe them, sorry for the inconvienince. Anyway, the thing is that I wouldn't say the Eldar are Elves, I'd say that they could be compared to Elves, or share aesthetic similarities with Elves. That's what I did to their description. But I hope you know, I don't want to have to fight with you, can't we all just get along? I just made an edit, I didn't know you'd violently oppose it. I just want to let us agree on things, please. You're just dragging this on, and I'm tired to fighting over a description of an article about some silly game. That's not worth fighting over, so let's just quietly resolve our differences.


Servitor_2152: Thank you to whoever standardized the WMG/Just Bugs Me/Crowning Moment links to "Warhammer 40000" instead of "Warhammer 40k." That always did bug me.

Large Blunt Object: No problem. Are there any I missed?

Verity: How do you change the alt titles? It should be 40k, not 40 K.


Dakkagor: Just dropping in to say that LBG, you are a legend and a gentleman. Very impressed with the 40k page and its whats kept me coming back to tv tropes time and again.


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