Discussion YMMV / FrozenDisney

Nope. Doesn't get listed on YMMV pages.

Alright, thanks. Good to know.

Sorry I was just going from the note in the opposite trope where the president was saying it was problematic.

I feel that would go better under Critical Dissonance, because last I checked the Norwegian critics gave poor reviews but the Norwegian people liked it fine.

Calm down.

Unfortunate Implications isn't the place for an argument. Or even talking about one. It's where, well, we cite people having seen the Unfortunate Implications. Saying "some people see the Unfortunate Implications, but some don't" is decidedly useless and irrelevant to UI.

Yes, the point of the citations is to show that several people share the opinion in question. Tumblr does count as evidence, per this token.

Do not tell me to calm down. Do not EVER tell me to calm down!! EVER!!!

Tumblr is about as credible as The Onion.

I wasn't trying trying to start an argument, though clearly, I mistakenly instigated one.

-sigh- I think I need to leave now. How the hell do you delete accounts from this website because I'm very irritated right now.

If you want people to not ask you to be calmer, you may want to lay off the caps and hyperbole.

The point of citations are to ensure that the UI isn't just the opinion of a single wackjob with a Single-Issue Wonk. When we're documenting whether people have these opinions, several Tumblrs certainly verifies this (though I agree, Tumblr is... yeah).

Define hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally

That was not an exaggeration!

Yeah, I get it. Only one side of the argument matters and only if it's negative. I get the freaking point already!!

Now, will somebody answer my question or do I need to figure it out myself?!?

Yeah, I get it. Only one side of the argument matters and only if it's negative

Um. Yes. Because it's the other side of the argument is off-topic; it'd be like listing the worst song under Crowning Music Of Awesome because it's just irrelevant to the trope at hand. We also want the articles (at least the individual entries) to have a consistent tone, to sound like they're written by one person. Breaking the rules in order to make the entry contradict itself is obviously frowned upon.

Except a bad song is as subjective as the queen of Arendelle herself!!

Fucking HELL!!! Damn this!!

Edit: Account deletion is not possible. What genius thought it was a good idea to make accounts undeletable?!?! Nobody answer that. I don't even want to know!!

So my fucking editing privileges are suspended because I wouldn't agree with someone?!?! They don't even allow fucking accounts to be deleted, but they'll suspend someone?!? Your fucking priorities suck ass!!!!

You're suspended because you're behaving like an infant throwing a temper tantrum instead of like a reasonable adult.

And last I checked, ban evading like you just did makes things permanent, so good job.

That's. Not. Enough! I wanted that account gone because I got irritated as all hell yesterday. Whose bright idea was it to make accounts incapable of being deleted?!? That wasn't a smart one!

And I was reasonable...at first. Unfortunately, being reasonable mistakenly erupted a fight and someone had the nerve to tell me to calm down (since when does telling someone who's mad to calm down ever work?). Reasonable is over.

Hell, I just had it confirmed above everything is one-sided. That's not reasonable in the slightest!

And now you got banned for ban evasion. Being mad won't get your wishes fulfilled.

Last message, and then, I am out because none of you were ever listening to begin with.

1) Obviously, your way of banning doesn't work.

2) That's why you're supposed to let users delete their accounts, and not just let them sit there.

3) Bad threat

4) I was reasonable up until a point. I stopped because it wasn't getting me anywhere. All it got me was the confirmation I mentioned above. If I'd known this site was gearing itself toward negativity-only, I would've left a long time ago.

5) Goodbye. I want no more to do with this site. Y'all have fun in your negative-filled world. Clearly, it's not suitable for me. I need somewhere that's not one-sided and allows both.

Here's a little positivity for you, though: Have fun!

Can't say I'm surprised my entry caused an edit war. I respect that some people having experienced depression relates to Elsa though, but with all the reaction it's spurred it's too bad it has to be removed completely. Like mentioned above it might be mentioned under Broken Base instead.

Well, it's under Foe Yay Shipping so yeah if Hans being a villain is a spoiler so would be listing him under it, since Elsa is not a villain.

But the entry is also spoilered in Fan-Preferred Couple and Ship-to-Ship Combat, which doesn't make sense.

Took out the spoiler tag on the first.

I've read that analysts were hoping for the film to earn more than it actually did. Though that still doesn't qualify as "underperforming big-time".

Look farther down on this discussion page. It was a huge block of spoiler tags and was removed for that reason.

We didn't have to remove the entire thing. We just needed to remove the big block of spoilers.

It needs significant rewriting as well, due to the bizzarre Example Indentation usage.

Should I fix the spoilers and add it back on the YMMV page, or should I just leave it where it is for now?

Here is my version:

• Alternative Character Interpretation:
  • Prince Hans, mostly coming from a lot of Draco in Leather Pants. His actions at the beginning of the movie make him seem like a genuinely nice guy who really likes Anna before the reveal, so a lot of fans think he genuinely liked Anna at first and then got power hungry due to his childhood. Of course, considering the many hints that he always just wanted the throne (see Rewatch Bonus below), as well as the fact that he openly admitted he wanted to woo Elsa first to achieve that, make this speculation largely inconsistent with canon.
  • Another common interpretation is whether he was always just concerned with the throne, or if he intended to be a decent regent, considering him helping civilians. Ultimately, it boils down to whereas it is Pragmatic Villainy or sincere altruism, though it's possible both coexist in Hans because his building of a fake heroic myth around himself indicates a desire to be adulated and adored, and happy people are less worrisome to rule over than people that despise you. These qualities both make him scarier and more relatable than many Disney villains, because the idea of a guy who genuinely wants to be a beloved ruler but will do so through the most devious and underhanded means possible just shows what extremes of good and evil can exist in the same person.
  • Yet another alternate interpretation set is whether his Freudian Excuse was justified, as there are many hints his relationship with his brothers was very negative at best, or if he was lying through his teeth about it. The fact that a diplomat near the end mentions that he does have brothers indicates that it's well-known that the Southern Isles does have a large royal family.
  • Yet again from Hans, after he was revealed to be Evil All Along, he closed the doors on Anna before putting out the fire and closing the curtains. This could also be interpreted as either him being merciful, since he is basically shortening her suffering... or hastening her death.
    • It seemed more like Pragmatic Villainy in that he would be blameless of Anna's death if she died by Elsa's magic. If he had killed her by any other means, suspicion wall fall upon him.
  • If one goes by the text of Let It Go in the German version, Elsa wasn't just never bothered by the cold, which may as well be, but by the time she reached the North Mountain she admitted to having been changed as "the cold is a part of [her] now", directly admitting to a change in her character.
    • The Latin American Spanish version is more blatant about it, called "Libre soy" ("I am free") with the last line being "The cold is also a part of me".
    • The French version of the song is similarly called "Libérée, délivrée" ("Freed, released").
    • Not the case for Japanese; "sukoshi mo samukunai" translates to "I'm not even a little bit cold" - maybe looking even deeper into her character that she's not such an Ice Queen after all
  • Hans's real reasons for wooing Anna. A man takes advantage of a young woman's need for love, even asking for her hand in marriage. Then, due to one circumstance or another, he doesn't need her anymore]. [[spoiler:Throwing her away after his use of her was over.
  • Many people interpret Elsa's story as an allegory of some kind. Few people agree on what that allegory is actually about.
  • Hans again, as to whether or to what extent he's faking his adorkableness. Even if he's faking being nice he's either extremely good at reading people (so that he can convincingly emulate them, as when he sings a fairly in sync duet with Anna) or he's just as adorkable as Anna, just happens to also be evil.
  • The Trolls have become subject to this as they may be darker than they appear. For example, some wonder if they possibly kidnapped Kristoff when he was a child (Word of God says no), and if their magic may have darker results than shown, as evidenced by the King and Queen's fear of taking Anna and Elsa to them. It probably helps that the trolls in the original story were evil.
    • On the gripping hand, considering the characters are Genre Savvy to general Fairy Tales. The smoke doesn't show anything, but reveals what the characters are thinking. If they'd asked...
  • The ending. Was the end of the eternal winter caused by Elsa's control of her powers, or Anna discovering powers of her own?
  • The Duke of Wesselton. Firstly, his desire to kill Elsa could be interpretted as either religious fanaticism, or a genuine attempt to save the World. Also, in-universe everyone seems to think that his concern for the wealth of the Kingdom makes him evil. This neglects the fact that he's the ruler of one of their major trading partners, and if they have nothing to trade his own people stand to suffer.

If you approve of it, I will put in on the page.

Edit: I corrected errors with the indention.

That is really long, but a bigger issue is that we don't do lonely subbullets. Also, the German version bullet should be at the same level as the two other translation bullets.

I cut down on most of the article.

• Alternative Character Interpretation:
  • P Prince Hans's real reasons for wooing Anna. A man takes advantage of a young woman's need for love, even asking for her hand in marriage. Then, due to one circumstance or another, he doesn't need her anymore, throwing her away after his use of her was over.
  • Many people interpret Elsa's story as an allegory of some kind. Few people agree on what that allegory is actually about.
  • Hans again, as to whether or to what extent he's faking his adorkableness. Even if he's faking being nice he's either extremely good at reading people (so that he can convincingly emulate them, as when he sings a fairly in sync duet with Anna) or he's just as adorkable as Anna, just happens to also be evil.
  • The Trolls have become subject to this as they may be darker than they appear. For example, some wonder if they possibly kidnapped Kristoff when he was a child (Word of God says no), and if their magic may have darker results than shown, as evidenced by the King and Queen's fear of taking Anna and Elsa to them. It probably helps that the trolls in the original story were evil.
  • The ending. Was the end of the eternal winter caused by Elsa's control of her powers, or Anna discovering powers of her own?
  • The Duke of Wesselton. Firstly, his desire to kill Elsa could be interpretted as either religious fanaticism, or a genuine attempt to save the World. Also, in-universe everyone seems to think that his concern for the wealth of the Kingdom makes him evil. This neglects the fact that he's the ruler of one of their major trading partners, and if they have nothing to trade his own people stand to suffer.

I hope you like this.

I would remove the second sub-bullet; other than that it's fine for me.

I guess I will put it on the page then (minus second sub-bullet).

Edit: Though I should remark on how even this very wiki can't decide on whether Elsa is Ambiguously Lesbian or not.

I'm in favor of the Duke of Wesselton's interpretation, came to add that. I mean, heck what sovereign nation isn't aiming to exploit another in some way?

elsa's also pretty damn selfish and irresponsible. she probably wouldn't make the best ruler for arendelle. she threw away her crown in Let it Go, essentially throwing away her royal responsibilities to her kingdom. she also did nothing to try and fix the eternal winter she caused (even if she thought she'd make it worse, is leaving her family and friends to freeze to death a better option?). when arendelle's guards come for her, she doesn't try to explain herself, she just tries to kick them out, maybe kill them (only reason she didn't shove the guard out into a fatal fall is because hans told her not to be a monster). and after hans leaves her in the dungeon, she immediately starts trying to run away from her problems again. (hans: you can't run away. elsa: just take care of my sister)

It's also a repeat, given that the same discussion about race is in Internet Backdraft with an actual citation, along with the sexist remarks from the animators.

Sexist? They were talking about animating hair one strand at a time.

No, I'm not talking about the hair, I'm just referencing the "girl faces are hard to do and keep pretty" comment, as that and the race bit both have evidence to back them up. Should have made that clear, sorry.

Well it's still from tumblr, but here's someone Nordic.

http://sentientcitizen.tumblr.com/post/71128086835/are-sami-people-of-color http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2007-03/1174412643.Ge.r.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics_of_the_Sami http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/dieda/hist/genetic.htm

These are some of the sources I've looked into with links to further information on the matter, and according to them, while there are a lot of similarities between Sami and Inuit on a superficial level (most likely due to the environment leading to a convergent evolution of sorts in physical features and cultural practices), genetically the Sami have more in common with the Basque and even Berber peoples.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/the-men-of-the-north-the-sami/ http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/genome-wide-analysis-of-population.html

Based on what I understand of these articles, according to the first one there are genetic studies that show the Sami have more visible evidence of Asian ancestry than one would expect from a European ethnicity in their DNA, but which is still negligible compared to their predominantly European lines of descent, and which can be explained as the result of early isolation leading to the stabilization of these alleles within the population instead of being lost like with other European groups. The second points out that given the limitations of the data sets used, it's possible the Sami may have some distant relation to central Siberian groups, some of whom might be common ancestors of even the non-Sami white Finns, but again, Siberian peoples are a diverse group, thus many of them are not closely related to the Inuit.

If a proper geneticist can explain it better that would be great.

Seeing as I haven't gotten a response to the contrary this week, I'm going to go ahead and change the entry on the main page.

While I am not familiar with the work, I think that on YMMV pages only canon information can ever be spoiler tagged, so limiting it in that sense is a good place to start. Plus, a YMMV entry consisting only of canon info is almost certainly wrong, barring certain tropes such as Complete Monster.

I've done what I can to work on that, but the Alternate Character Interpretation entry needs massive reworking to get around the problem.

Ahh, now that one's my fault. Broken Base and Accidental Aesop are both YMMV and that threw me off. I never even thought of it.

I can clean up the wording if that's the problem. Add context. Reading it over again, it really does need that context.

Technically speaking, we don't have a "fans see similarities" trope at all.

Going to need some more detail, sorry.

His only scene is in his trading post, which is having a big summer blow out (due to the winter caused by Elsa), and steals the scene with his funny accent, and desperation to get people to buy his summer stock. Scene can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpzvS0ATxB4

Seems fine for me.